For those seriously interested there are sites dedicated to water injection and related topics.
This is one:
https://www.waterinjection.info/

and there are others.

Cheers , Pete.

This is HHO injection...different beast.

Yes it is. But I read a study a month ago posted on the Speedtalk site. It said under certain conditions the flame front travels faster with a particular water/air/fuel mix. Compaired to if you decrease the "water" at that "mix". Can't find the study.

At the least you get plenty of water vapor with an HHO setup.

Some of the best info?

https://waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects..._cell_v1.2.pdf

Best bet is to follow the links and a search engine and collect info? Then try to understand it....:confused:

https://flapdoodle.250free.com/auto/h2.gif
I have the generator bench tested and on the car now. It feels like a smaller car at lower throttle. so far I am delighted.
https://flapdoodle.250free.com/auto/cover_off.JPG
This is the unit that resides on the transmission hump.
More detail here:
https://flapdoodle.250free.com/HHO_generator.html

Someone installed an HAFC on there F150. https://majornews.com/modules/wordpress

Looks like you solved the freezing problem? Bring it inside?

"More coming Input, comments welcome, but please do not e-mail me telling me I am doing it wrong without having tried it yourself, do not have hard data to support your claims, or are comparing this one designed for my 7.5 liter engine to the one you hope to someday/maybe build for your 1.5 liter car."

Who could this be? :rolleyes: :eek:

How are your cells temps? I think one guy found that if they get too hot...you get water vapor rather than HHO.

Have you tested your L / min output? Just curious.

Why are you asking the same questions here that you asked in your many e-mails, and had already been answered just for you on the webpage?


Feb 3, 08
Alcohol as an antifreeze (this may be my winter recipe)
4 ounces denatured alcohol, 1 3/4 tsp NaOH, 20oz. deionized water
2.85 amps steady stream of bubbles.

As I told you before, I do not have room under the hood for the generator, that is why it is inside, plus it allows me to keep an eye on it during debugging.

Water vapor is produced at ALL temperatures, that is why snow goes away in sub-zero temps through a process called sublimation. If you are trying to imply as you did in your e-mails that my cells are too hot, they are not.

This was with ONE cell, they are in series now and quite cool...
"I was curious about the claims that temperature reduces efficiency with 12 volts/cell (regulated).
time amp temp ?F ~bubbles./minute bubbles/min/amp
6:25 8.9 88.3 140 bubbles 15.7
6:27 9.8 96.8 160+ 16.3+
6:32 10.1 100 180 17.8
6:37 10.9 110 190+ 17.3+

With a rise of 22 degrees, the production went up 10%
After this, I have a hard time believing the claim of reduced efficiency for higher temperatures."

It is much more likely that there is loss of water in the electrolyte because of vacuum which reduces vapor pressure. Something akin to freeze drying.

I have responded to your question of gas production at least twice.

Be suspicious of claims of 1 liter per minute with 10 amps consumed per generator. Amperes is a measurement of force, not power. It takes 4 kilowatt hours of power to make 1 cubic meter (1,000 liters) of hydrogen assuming high efficiency. This means 10 amps at 12 volts (120 watts) can make .5 liters of hydrogen per minute.

The person mentioned as far as water vapor designed a modified SmackBooster and found that the gas produced would not burn...my guess being that it was running too hot due to his attempts a making a sealed series plate design out of it. His cell temps were in the 158F range...at least outside the cell...temp around the plates was likely higher.

A lot of gas that is mostly water vapor is not good. Can't push these cells.

My 3 plate cell tested at .07 L / min running at 12V....6 amps and 113F. Impressive eh? My guess is around .25 L / min with 2....3 plate cells in series running at 6V.

You can find 91% isopropyl which might work. 70% also. Isopropyl has been used as a gas additive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl

isopropyl is a substituent form of propane, the three-carbon alkyl functional group. As an isomer of propyl, bonding to an R group occurs at the secondary (2?) carbon.

I second the point that you need to modify the cars computer signal from the Oxygen sensor in order for the HHO generator to work. All the studies I've seen and read say that since the combustion process is more efficient (quite a few people are claiming ZERO emissions) that your oxygen sensor thinks the car is running too lean. It compensates by adding enough fuel to get a "normal" reading. As a result people gain nothing, sometimes get worse mileage by installing an HHO generator. That's the reason why people are installing the EIFE devices to change the oxygen sensor reading.

HHO devices (depending on who designed it) usually only use about 10 amps more or less. This is about the same energy used as turning on one headlight. I don't know about anyone else, but my mileage doesn't change when turning on my headlights... In exchange the HHO produced is simply a catalyst added to the mixture of fuel/air already present in the engine. It makes the fuel burn completely inside the cylinder instead of being wasted by burning throughout the exhaust system.

[QUOTE=gto78;91750]I second the point that you need to modify the cars computer signal from the Oxygen sensor in order for the HHO generator to work. All the studies I've seen and read say that since the combustion process is more efficient (quite a few people are claiming ZERO emissions) that your oxygen sensor thinks the car is running too lean. It compensates by adding enough fuel to get a "normal" reading. As a result people gain nothing, sometimes get worse mileage by installing an HHO generator. That's the reason why people are installing the EIFE devices to change the oxygen sensor reading.

QUOTE]

What about just feeding hydrogen into the intake manifold would that still trigger the sensor somehow?
This calls for two tubes out the top of the electrolisis tank and a top to near bottom divider so that you don't mix the HH with the O ?

I just bought the water4gas.com online books
 

Hi,
I'm a new member here, with a 2007 Prius. Gas just went to $3.29.9 here in Galesburg, IL.
Ozzie Freedom and the other guys that have developed their HHO system, have done a LOT of research, and have over 9,000 users, they claim. I don't doubt it, and they're going to get many more.
I see some of you guys talking about "plates". Take a look at water4gas.com,
and you'll see that plates are not the best way.
I bought a dozen wide-mouth Mason jars today, and will start gathering more parts. I'll try a two-cell setup, and try to find whether I even have a MAP, or whatever, in the Prius. Ozzie F. has other things to try with the "heart" of the system, which is the HHO electrolyzer. It CAN get complicated, but I'm going to
try a couple or 3 simple methods. Might build a simple MAP enhancer. There are even some gas additive (sworn not to be harmful to the car) mixes to try.
If you really want to get involved in this, you might do well by spending $97 on the two water4gas online books. Easy to read, well-illustrated.

It would seem that surface area is what gives the most gas rather than a thin wire as water4gas suggests , perhaps I am wrong but do try it out and we'll be listening for your comments.

I'm using a scangauge and if I turn on my headlights at 65mph my instant MPG goes down 2mpg.
But I third you on the EFIE scenario.
Bravo to those actively gathering results on here into these HHO systems!

I think the all variables involved in the construction of different types of generators and electrolytes is a bit more complicated than most believe.

Think of a spark plug...does it have a lot of surface area?

Too many including myself, try to reinvent the wheel by designing their own generator.

Best bet is to build a known design according to their specs and construction details...right now I'd go with either the smackbooster or the water4gas cells...forget the closed cell tero design or bobboyce...too technical for the beginner.

Lot of bull and misleading (confusing?) info on the HHO forums? Too much emphasis on the perfect design...losing track of getting one made and installed and in use. And it isn't just a matter of throwing a lot of HHO at your engine...it should be part of a system.

Big issues are finding space and keeping the cells cool....which isn't talked about a lot.

I wholeheartedly agree. It would have been better for me if I had read less of what others are doing. This is part of what I found...

Efficiency seems best if the voltage is kept low, but not in every case. I have used 12 volts in bench tests with success. Many say the best voltage is between 1.5-2 volts, but yours may NOT work at 2 volts or below. This may vary with the type of electrolyte used, electrolyte strength, electrolyte purity, plate material or alloy, plate shape, spacing, water purity, temperature, and other factors.

Large plate size may not be the best answer. My plates are small; 1/2" x 5". If the electrolyte becomes discolored, it usually means the plates are being eaten away. A greater number of smaller cells may give the best electrode life and better gas production.

https://flapdoodledinghy.com/auto/temp.gif
Operating temperature is very important. I got a simple temperature controller working last night and hope to have it installed soon.
You are welcome to follow along with testing here:
https://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html



Bill

Hmm, since you put it that way now I have to see for myself...lol Tomorrow I'm pluggin in the Scangauge before driving to work and I'll set cruise. I'll let it stabilize at whatever mpg it is and do what you did- turn on or off my headlights. If my mileage makes a noticeable change then I'll have learned something for the day and have an excuse to go back home, and avoid work for the day.

* your testing is way ahead of mine

* water4gas uses 316L wire for the + with no erosion and using soda...one guy claims 2Xs the gas output under same amp/temp conditions when using soda vs NaOH in these cells

* might use battery warmers or coffee warmers to preheat the cells...could maintenance charge the car's battery overnight using a 15V wallwart? Unplug and drive.

* have a mechanical adjustable rad fan switch that switches down at around room temps at least ($19 at Autozone?)

* have you found a way to test for the quality of the gas vs temp? If some of the gas is water vapor due to overheating...not going to be as combustible? Where do you think the upper temp limit is for quality gas production?

You can see incremental load changes with better resolution at idle just by monitoring the LOD display. Going from all accessories and cooling fan off to everything on makes our Mazda5 LOD jump as much as 50% at idle.

Anyway, back to our thread, I am VERY interested to see where the results of this experiment go. Nice work flap!

* water4gas uses 316L wire for the + with no erosion and using soda...one guy claims 2Xs the gas output under same amp/temp conditions when using soda vs NaOH in these cells

There is no such thing as running it on soda. It changes in a very short time to NaOH. The pH bears this out. Soda has a pH of 7. A few minutes of operation it changes to pH of 10.


* have a mechanical adjustable rad fan switch that switches down at around room temps at least ($19 at Autozone?)

I put one of those on my e-fan abut 6 years ago. I love it.

* have you found a way to test for the quality of the gas vs temp? If some of the gas is water vapor due to overheating...not going to be as combustible? Where do you think the upper temp limit is for quality gas production?

Is there some evidence that there is a quality problem? Be assured that any mix of H2 and O2 will burn. I have not experienced any water losses, but I am considering water injection. It may allow a tiny bit more ignition advance.

The upper temperature will be determined by the individual cell, its design, electrodes, electrolyte, and many other variables.

Bill

https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/w.../message/25095


"I am trying to built a hydrogen booster and tested out various
configurations i.e. Aaron, Smack etc.

In all the tests i have observed that if we try to increase the gas
production then the temperature of the water goes up very fast and
gets stable at 70-71 deg celsius. (158F) But the most unfortunate thing is
that at this temperature the quantum of steam generated by the
booster is pretty high. I tried to burn the gas (vapour coming out
from container) but it did not explode."

My theory, at least, is that when pushed with too many amps ( too high of a current density > amps / sq ") the temp right where the gas forms might reach a high enough level to make water vapor or steam. Since the gas tends to form on points and edges...with certain cell designs this might happen sooner than later?

Could be this effect causes a runaway cell?

This might explain part of the high efficiencies claimed for the closed cell series type cells...where there are no sharp edges or points...just crosshatching and a relatively large surface area...which would make gas production distribute evenly across the full surface area?

So you could be measuring lots of gas output...but it might not burn.

The FACT that he is seeing stable temps of 158F means to me that these cells are reaching some kind of threshold...which might be where they are just making vapor or steam instead of HHO? Meaning that they stabilize at this temp because all excess energy is going into steam?

So keep cell temps below 158F?

That pretty much proves my point that temperature is of utmost important. Your post raises questions...
How can he be getting steam below 100 degrees C?
How do these guys plan to keep the cell cool with an under-the-hood installation?
Trying to light the vapor directly from the generator is extremely risky.

0C is known as the triple point of water because it's the temperature where it can exist as a solid, liquid and gas at the same time. You don't typically see steam unless it's condensing out of the air. When the air has a lot of capacity to absorb water vapor, you'll see less, when it's near saturation, you'll see more. On cold damp days you see your breath, on cold but really dry days, you may not, I've seen my breath on days where it's been 25C with 100% humidity. The point of maximum steam production at regular air pressure is 100C, but that doesn't mean that some isn't being produced at cooler temperatures. Hold a quarter bottle of water in your hand for 10 mins, you'll see condensation forming in the top of the bottle, just from your body heat.

I am well aware of that, but the man said "steam". In the context, (I.E. Smack booster) this would mean he is referring to the gasses leaving the generator as a stream through the bubble jar.

The concern is that the product did not burn and it seems implied that non-flammable steam is being produced. I have tried to ignite a mixture of H2 and O2 with a cigarette without success. A small balloon will ignite easily with a butane lighter. More information is needed to make any sort of conclusion to the man's statement, but my question stands... How did he get "steam" below 100 degrees C as he claims?

flapdoodle -

In an ideal world, couldn't you have a circuit that limits the Amps to the HHO generator based on the temperature? If yes, what would that circuit look like?

CarloSW2

I am working on just that...
https://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_control.html

flapdoodle -

I second ZugyNA's kudos on the work you are doing, :thumbup: .

THANK YOU!!!!!

CarloSW2

Mythbusters had trouble getting a pool of gasoline to light with a cigarette.

I think it takes 1500F to ignite H2? No 1040F.

I've got 560C, and while I don't necessarily regard mythbusters as the epitome of scientific investigation, I seem to recall they were seeing an "idle" cigarette at about 400-450C and just getting up to 500ish when drawing on it, by using an infrared thermometer.

I'm thinking that it might be a combination of a high enough electrolyte temp (158F?) and the high current involved that might be causing this to happen, instead of HHO production.

You could tell you were making vapor or steam IF your electrolyte level started going down faster than was typical?

I'm wondering whether this process (if it happens) starts gradually where above a certain temp HHO production would start to drop and vapor output would start to increase.

The dielectric permittivity (dielectric constant. Distilled water has a constant of 81) decreases while the dielectric loss increases. (making even more heat). Measurement shows that the resistivity (inverse of resistance) decreases after hydrogen charging. This degradation can be explained as hydrogen forming hydroxy (OH-) bonds in the surface, which prevents the ions from switching. (Ions carry the hydrogen to one electrode, and oxygen to the other. In other words, a charged cloud, or plasma). Note that there will be an associated breakdown of electrolyte and the electrode surface.

Since water boils at 212 degrees, you will not see steam at the temperatures you quote. If you take a magnifying glass to the hydrogen production you will see minute droplets being ejected from the electrolyte surface. I installed mist shields on my cells to prevent the mist from being drawn up the supply tubes.

The temperature of 158F is almost meaningless since thermal runaway will vary with the cell design and operating conditions.

Bill

The one way you could see steam is something called spot heating meaning that the temperature at the plates got to boiling probably from the gas bubbles reducing the contact surface of the plate and insulating it to just a small areas where the current though the water was concentrated and made the temperature rise enough there to boil some water off. The thing to do is to increase the conduction of the water so that it has less resistance and then all the heating problems will go away and you will be simply be splitting the water into 4H+O2 gases. This also reduces the required plate voltage to slightly over what is needed to split the molecules apart making it more efficient.

The spot heating theory sounds fine and I did consider that. However, the claim is that steam is entering the engine. IF it made it out of the cell, I see no way it would survive as steam after going through the backflash bubbler and a lot of tubing.

Steam injection in conjunction with hydrogen is one thing that others are working on and in itself may not be bad.

Increasing the electrolyte makes the problem worse rather than better because the current goes up. You can easily try this yourself in a coffee cup with distilled water, baking soda and copper wire.

flapdoodle -

Have you heard anything about this gizmo? :

HydranOx
https://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php
CarloSW2

I saw it before but am not really familiar with it. I have a problem with the claim of "all that extra water coming out the exhaust". Any hydrogen I could ever hope to generate is negligible to the water that burning gasoline produces.. Something like 8 pounds per gallon.

It is a very nice looking unit though.

Sort of what I was trying to say. Doesn't matter whether this "steam" makes it to the engine as "steam"....just that it isn't HHO?

This might be why the more "advanced" closed series cells use crosshatched plates with no plate edges exposed to the electrolyte? Keeps these localized "hot spots" reduced and spreads the gas production out over a larger surface?

Also might relate to the idea of using sonics...pulsing...magnetics to make the bubbles detach earlier?

Something related:


https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/


In the *files section*...check out:

Bill_Lang_New_System.pdf


https://download1-cm.edgesuite.net/bl...udio/mpeg&cd=1

Increasing the electrolyte should reduce the resistance heating of the liquid and yes it will increase the current if you try to maintain the same voltage but that is what is supposed to happen when the resistance goes down. As far as the Steam is concerned the gas will contain some moisture and bubbling it through more water should cool and condense any "steam" from leaving the cell. There may still be a fog or mist of very small water droplets in the gas which if passed through a few loops of tubing (clear) should separate out. Increasing the plate area should also help but ultrasonic release of the gas bubbles should not be needed in a moving vehicle since the road and engine vibrations should help knock them loose anyway.
Water from burnt gasoline is a function of how many hydrogen atoms are in the fuel that combine with the O2 from the air being taken in and yes it could be 8lbs per gallon since more of the weight is from the 2 Oxygen atoms combining with the lightest Hydrogen atom - you could even end up with more weight in water than you started with in gasoline if there are a lot of hydrogens atoms in the fuel. Oxygen atoms are about 16 times heavier than Hydrogen atoms and there are 2 of them from evey hydrogen atom in water. If there were 1 pound of hydrogen atoms in the gasoline you would end up with 33 pounds of water.

Yes, but that would make it a different generator then wouldn't it? The man's question involved limiting the temperature.

I am using the same oxygen that was part of the molecule when it was water, so if I get 33 pounds out, I would have to but 33 pounds of water in (4.125 gallons). That will mean a lot of miles.

Have you actually built a generator?