Using Larger Oil Filter?
 

Hello -

I was wondering about this post by CheapyBob :

Switched to Amsoil today.
My questions are :

1 - What do you think of using a larger oil filter for MPG?
2 - Are most oil filter connectors the same? If yes, then it's moslty just an issue of clearance.
3 - If it helps MPG, then how? Would it be because the area of the filter is larger or there is less pumping losses?
4 - Could the engine be hurt in some way?

Thanks,

CarloSW2

I'm not sure how many specs an oil filter has, but I know that you need one that has the same threads, and the same diameter of gasket, and most have a pressure relive valve, and I'm not sure if that changes much, I do know that our ford ranger oil filter can be used as the over sized filter for a geo metro if nothing else happens to be in the way, and on my civic vx I use a filter that is simply twice as long, the amsoil dealer that I buy from looked it up in some cross reference chart he had.
the way I see it, if you double the filter area, you might not cut your resistance in half, but you are going to be able to capture twice as much grit, and when your oil is cold and thick it's going to have twice as much area to push thru, so it should filter twice as fast, or pretty close, and that is why the relive valve is there, so if your oil is cold and thick, or the filter is clogged it can bypass the filter.

If you look at the base of the filter there is usually a code stamped on, such as 2C which is the type of base and fitting. If you can find a bigger filter with the same code as the one specced for your car, and if it fits in the space available you can use it. There are different threads and reaches and things for filters so be absolutely sure it fits on correctly, otherwise it will dump your oil on the highway and likely kill your motor.

I've always run the largest filter I can find as a matter of "it should catch more crap with less flow restriction". If it makes a BIG difference in F.E. it's probably because you're using 20W50 where you should be using 5W30 or something like that.

Gaining HP from a lower oil fill is likely to be engine specific, on some vehicles, the crank might be dipping into the oil at the full level and whipping it up into ropes and windage clouds that harm efficiency (hence the use of windage trays and crank scrapers) conversely overfilling can help some motors, because at higher RPMs they tend to suck the pan almost dry and start foaming the oil everywhere, which then leads to windage problems at both top and bottom of the motor if it doesn't actually hurt any bearings under high load (windage trays and scrapers help that too by making sure more stays in the pan)

Auto transmissions are also affected like this and some are better slightly overfull and some better underfull.

It might help some, but it's my understanding that it isn't size per se that matters.

What really matters (in a filter) is a combination of the filter's ability to filter, along with its ability to let the oil easily flow. Better oil flow rate can help FE, because it can lower parasitic losses on the engine. Likewise, cleaner oil is better for FE than "dirty oil", and the better the filtering ability (of the filter) the cleaner your oil will be.

Now it is true that all else being equal, a bigger filter should flow a little easier (more surface area for the oil to flow through), and also filter a little better (due to more filter media being in the can). So all else being equal, a bigger filter (that physically fits in the application) should be a little better.

But the thing is, frequently all else is NOT equal, as filters vary a huge amount in both the quality of their construction and the ability of their filter media to filter. So a quality smaller filter will win out over a bigger (less well constructed) filter almost every time!

NOTE:
Last I heard (and also what I use), the Amsoil EAO filters (and their fully synthetic filter media) are just about the best filters on the market these days, for their combination of filtering ability (both how fine of filtration they do, how much junk you can remove before they fill up) and their flow rate (which is amazingly good, especially in such a fine filter). And I'm not just saying that because I have an Amsoil dealership, but rather because I not only use that filter myself (and seen what it can do), I've also seen its filtering specs, as well as seen the results of independent tests done by some people over on the "Bob is the Oil Guy" forums.

NOTE:
If you really want the ultimate in filtering, combine a really good full flow filter (such as the already mentioned EAO filter), with what is know as a "bypass filter". A bypass filter, is a 2nd (doesn't replace the main) filter that is plumbed into your car, so that a small amount of oil is SLOWLY filtered very well (often down to 2 microns filtration, or even finer). The idea is, that very fine filtration often affects flow rate, and therefore it's hard to get both good flow (needed for the engine to get enough oil) and good filtration (needed to clean the oil of fine partials) in the same engine filter. Although some filters (the EAO probably being about the best on the market), make a good faith effort (by using better technology and better quality manufacturing) to do both with main engine filters, in the end you always have a trade-off between fine filtration and oil flow rate. So what a bypass filter does, is not worry about the flow rate issue, as it's designed to NOT be the primary filter in front of the engine, but rather to just supplement the main filtration by slowly doing a very good job of filtering/cleaning the oil in the crank-case. This results in TWO oil paths in the cars, the main (full flow) path as before, and a 2nd path that doesn't even try to meet the engine's oil flow needs, but instead just works to ultra-clean the oil.

And FWIW: Yes my CRX does use both a bypass filter and an EAO full flow filter, for just about the ultimate in keeping my oil clean and flowing. This, combined with the high quality synthetic oil I use, not only seems to help my FE, but also means that I can easily go 10 to 20 thousand miles between oil changes (because the synthetic oil breaks down so slowly, and the filter combination keeps the oil ultra clean)!

How about a couple of pictures, & a write up on the bypass filter? I've got a EAO waiting for my 2nd Auto-RX treatment to be done. Anything that will fit in a CRX should fit in a VX too.

I saw a post once(at priuschat IIRC) where somebody hooked their bypass filter up to a pump and tank. He would take the old oil from his vehicles, run them through this set up for awhile, have it tested, and, if still good, reuse it.

He went with this setup, because he couldn't mount the bypass filter in a Prius, and he had multiple vehicles.

I'll be happy to.

However, I don't know when I'll get around to that little project (the photos and write up), as I've been pretty busy with family (and to a lessor extent, work) issues lately...

I used to drive about 45k miles/ year in my diesel. The recommended oil change interval using a mandatory full synthetic only oil was 7,500 miles, that's a $25 oil and filter change every two months. I bought one of the less costly 'toilet tissue' filters (Gulf Coast Filters) in hopes of reducing the frequency and cost of the oil changes. Periodic analysis of the oil showed that the oil was still well within specifications after 55,000 miles with the one exception of a slowly diminishing TBN as the acid neutralizers were consumed. The loss of neutralizing capacity implied about a 75,000 mile oil life. Since my cam timing belt needs to be replaced each 60k miles and I have to have the car up on ramps for that, I decided to change my oil as frequently.

My job has since changed to one with a fixed commute, not on-the-road field service. The time interval between those former 60k mile intervals are now too long, so I did not install the by-pass filter on my current car when I did the engine swap. My present 5,000 mile annual use still means one oil change per year.

Anti-drainback valve, bypass pressure, gasket size, and thread pitch are the big things for you to look at. Most Hondas are 20mm by 1.5, Fords are ? by 16, and Mopar is the same I think. Go to wixfilters.com and do a search for your car. It will tell you the filter thread pitch, and other dimensions. then check out bobistheoilguy.com and the oil filter section and do a search for a bigger version of your filter.

I have a bypass filter that I will be setting up on my new car when I get it. The ARX may come before or after the install, haven’t decided yet.

Dust -

Thanks! I just went to WiX and got all the info I need

L4 1.9L 1901cc - WAGON/SW1/SW2
CarloSW2

Some reading for you

You own a mustang, and you have a 3/4 x16 thread. Depending on who you are, you either research this stuff like I do, or you buy whatever the Jiffy Lube place sells you.

Well, a guy with money and time at BITOG by the name of Big O Dave came up with this list of 3/4x16 filters, with sizes, pictures, and filter areas.

Measurements were made with a ruler and a tire depth guage

Oil Filter Chart

Here are the pictures of the filters he cut open

FL-1A Equivalents
Amsoil EaO15 "Nanofilter"
Baldwin B2
Baldwin B2-HPG
Bosch 3500
Denso 150-1004
Donaldson P169071
Donaldson P550008
Fleetguard LF3313
Fleetguard LF3487
Fram HP1
Fram PH8A
Fram TG8A
Fram XG8A
K&N HP-3001
Mobil 1 M1-301
Mobil 1 M1-301EP
Motorcraft FL-1A
Napa 1515/Wix 51515 (Same thing)
Professional's Choice Q1A
Purolator PremiumPlus L30001
Purolator PureONE PL30001
STP S8A
Supertech ST8A

FL-299 Equivalents
Baldwin BT237
Baldwin BT251
Donaldson P550299
Donaldson P554407
Fleetguard LF697
Fram PH977A
Motorcraft FL-299
Purolator PremiumPlus L40017
Wix 51773

"GIGANTO" Filter
Napa 1714/Wix 51714 (Same thing)


The overall size of the filters can be based off this information
FL-299's are all about this size.

FL-1A's are all about this size.

And the "Giganto" Wix 51714 is this size.

Remember that it isn’t just the size that matters, but also the quality.

Some companies have started including beta ratios with their filters.
www.wixfilters.com has most extensive list that I have found, but other websites are adding them.
Also check
https://www.baldwinfilters.com/
https://www.pureoil.com/

Explanation about Beta Ratios
https://www.hastingsfilter.com/engineer/98_4.html

For example, the FL1A -> wix #51515 is 2/20=19/41.

So the 51515 is 50% efficient at 19 microns and larger.

Beta 20 is 95% efficient.

So the 51515 is 95% efficient at 41 microns and larger.

Lastly remember that a new filter is worse at filtering than a used one. As the bigger particles build up in the filter, the holes get smaller, and smaller particles can be trapped. Think of it exponentially. As the filter clogs, it can trap particles better until it clogs.

The filter links aren't working. I will email the links in a Word document if you are interested.

Dust -

Yes please. I just sent you a PM. Coincidently, I just got the Blackstone oil testing kit in the mail yesterday. I will do a two-step process. I think I will analyze my next oil change base on the "normal" filter currently in my car. My mechanic uses Chevron Supreme oil and Purolator filters. This will give me a baseline. If I have finished my research, I will try the new-bigger TBD filter then. If I haven't, then it will be the following oil change.

CarloSW2

it should be in your box. take a look at the pictures, and determine which is best for you, and your budget/requirements.

Filter Info Fyi ... "new Patent"
 

i ran across this website .. they do not havethe filter in full production yet . It holds real promise as a solution for the "filter problem" ...
AND FYI ....you can put a bunch of magnets on your filter NOW and catch stuff .... i did a 500 miles test of the magnet catch ability and was really surprised!! will post photos if anyone is interested?
dddon ... (i think in 3D too!)

https://www.practicingoilanalysis.com...pin-on+Filters

Interesting to hear about that hybrid filter - I am using a special filter purchased from Synlube that filters down to 5 microns with a special solid synthetic fiber filter material that has high flow properties.

There is no such thing as restriction in the oil filter hurting your power or mileage. All oil filters have a bypass. A large amount of your oil at all times is bypassed hopefully to be filtered the next time around. More and more oil is bypassed as the filter medium becomes clogged.

I very much agree with the thought that maybe this guy's dipstick was leading him to overfill his oil to the point that the crank was splashing in it.

Now here is my wild unproven theory. There IS a problem with all mechanical oil pumps in that they raise oil pressure too high when RPMs climb. It IS beneficial to limit the pressure at a certain point. His motor, being a domestic motor, may have benefited by running less oil if somehow it reduced maximum oil pressure. However, you cannot apply this to any Japanese motor or modern motor. Further, I'd be too afraid of the consequences of messing with the oil system, although having the mark in the middle is hardly risky. If you want optimal control of oil pressure, you switch to an electric pump. This is no small task. Switch to an electric water pump instead and call it a day. Or you can put a weak vacuum pump to suck on your crankcase.

Domestic motors are often based on recycled designs from way back in the sixties. That is why many tricks exist to increase efficiency of these motors, but they don't work on Japanese motors. The Japanese tend to start completely from scratch every 15 years or less. There is also a whole different mentality to how they engineer things. Domestic companies prefer to increase power by increasing engine size, while foreign companies (who are often under strain of fitting into tax brackets based on engine size) tend to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency from a small motor. I've been told that domestics start with the nuts and bolts and Japanese start with the air passages. I'm sorry to single out the Japanese; there are in fact examples of highly advanced, highly efficient motors from all companies from GM to Toyota to Citreon to BMW.

The bypass is a pressure controlled valve which usually opens at 80psi of pressure between the high (pump) and low (engine) pressure sides at all other times ALL the oil flows through the filter material. Take a filter apart some time and see how it works. And yes pumping through a filter takes power from the engine so a blocked filter takes more power than a clean one.

I knew a guy who boasted about "Getting full oil pressure at idle" after putting 20W50 or something worse in his ford that was specced for 5W20. I tried 'splaining that this just meant he was bypassing the filter and barely getting any filtration, but ... he was kinda deaf to common sense.

Actually NO he was getting full oil pressure into the engine and probably on both sides of the oil filter element. The problem is he has too much oil pressure in the entire system and adding strain on the cam drive be it chain or gears since most engines drive the pump from the cam shaft to keep a load on it to prevent backlash when the lifters ride down the back sides of the cam lobes. Normally the oil pressure would be a bit lower at idle when you don't really need too much pressure anyway. The bypass only works when the filter element is not allowing the oil to flow through it fast enough like when the engine oil is cold or too thick or the the filter element is blocked with dirt/sludge. The reason you don't rev the engine too much when the oil is cold is because the bypass can open up and possibly allow junk that had been trapped in the filter paper/whatever to flow past the filter into the engine oil galleries. Plus it pust more strain on the oil pump.

I am using a lifetime oil filter. It is made of 6061 T6 Billet aluminum housing, Viton O rings, duel woven T304 Stainless Steel mesh, 2 rare earth magnets. It has a by pass of up to 1000 psi. Increase flow to 20 + gpm one pass absolute filtering.
I have this installed on my 1992 3000GT twin turbo VR4. I use Shell Rotella T 15/40w oil. (4 quarts Walmart $9.27). This oil is Diesel rated with heavy detergents. I quit using Mobil 1. Change oil at 6000 miles. I clean the filter at about 1000 miles. I can remove the canister with out any oil drip. This car puts out a lot of heat and this has helped keep the car cooler. I have not yet got one for my Mazda. It was not cheap.

Dust -

I just got the test results. Nice healthy engine at 157K+ miles :

Attachment 1304

:)

CarloSW2

You run the 3/4 by 16 filter don't you on the saturn? You have ALOT of choices.