Transparency in the Top 10.
 

I'm somewhat irregular in my forum activity here, so if this has been bandied about before, forgive me, but I feel the need to voice my concern.

Firstly, there seems to be the persistent issue of motorcycles and scooters ending up in the "gasoline" category. That's an issue I know has come up before, and while I find it annoying, it's not my main concern here.

Now and then I have noticed at least a few vehicles in the top 10 whose most recent tank(s) - or even their only(!) tank - covers a very few number of miles and is wholly unrepresentative of what most would consider a measurable "real-world" MPG figure.

Would it make sense to require a minimum total distance traveled before allowing entries to be counted towards the Top 10? Time and again we hear it told or tell others not to be so certain over changes - good or bad - in their MPG until they've seen a few tanks and accounted for all the variables. Why then allow singular and/or low-mileage entires to be representative of a vehicles true MPG performance?

I agree completely and would like to see a minimum distance traveled to qualify for the Top 10. I would also like to see motorcycles and scooters excluded. No offense to those who achieve great FE in these, but they just don't belong in the Top 10.

I'd make this my personal crusade if I could get permissions to do so appropriately as a moderator. I've been bringing this up with the mods but as yet do not have tools or a specific person assigned to clean this up.

As one who is in the top 10 as far as % above EPA, this is something important to me. I've been analyzing my driving habits including a whole lot of EOI and neutral coasting which I'm trying to work into a thread for others who are interested in my personal methods. I know I have learned a lot from others' techniques.

Scooters and motorcycles and hybrids have categories, and these vehicles should not be in the gasoline section.

Rest assured you're being heard, even if we can't fix it as of yet.

What minimum distance would you suggest, btw? I'd like to hear thoughts on this.

I believe 12k or 15k is the annual car lease allowance and also the basis for many car manufactuer warranties (used to be anyway). Even AAA states that the average American drives 12,000 - 15,000 miles per year. So perhaps this or something close to it should be the minimum distance. At the same time, I don't think it's fair to exclude those who don't drive as much due to where they live (city or close to work), or due to personal choices (using bicycle or mass transportation). But there should be a substantial minimum distance to weed out those who only drive a few thousand miles per year.

I don't know if that ranking page is run through vBulletin or not, but on vBulletin there are 2 classes of moderators. Moderators, and Super Moderators. I know that Super Mods have more powers than Mods, but I'm not exactly sure what is extra. I'm a mod on another vBulleitn forum, but they don't use the Moderator function. All mods on that site are Super Moderators. If the ranking page is run through vBulletin and you are a SuperMod I think you should be able to move a vehicle to another category, just as if you moved a thread to another category because someone posted it in the wrong area. Then again that function may only be available to those with vBulletin "Contractor" or "Administrator" status. It all depends on how the site was initially setup.

-Jay

I had originally thought of something around a few thousand miles. I think that a year's worth of driving - while providing meaningful data - might rapidly dampen the spirits of many driven (haha) by the thrill of competition who want to get in on the game within a reasonable time-frame.

Since we list a 90-day running average why not figure on some mileage based on this? In the 3k range? For even the longest-ranged vehicles this would represent at least three tanks.

Otherwise, perhaps adopt the standard for some MPG record-setting requirement (Guinness Records or the like)? The EPA test cycle would be too short but maybe some other agency has an equivalent which could be appropriated.

what about a minimum fillup? i see some that log quick fills of 2 or 3 gallons, presumably of a fantastic trip. this would make one's average inflated no?

for cars, a minimum of 8 US gal for example, might be warranted.

Minimum quantity of fuel per fill can knock some people out of the running when they've greatly increased their mileage. I've been filling every 200mi because I'm eager to find out the results of my latest experiment; when I first got the car before I started hypermiling, that would have been enough for 8 gallons, but now that's 5 or 6 gallons.

I'm happy enough with the 90 day average. I wish it could reflect my latest strategies that I believe will be consistent from here on forward, but I understand that I really need to demonstrate results first. I can accept that some people who only drive a few hundred miles in 90 days can get an abnormal tank and beat me on the list, though I am not very competitive about it...I'm only vaguely interested in others' mileage, I'm too busy competing with myself. :D

i checked and conclude that avgs are based on total miles driven. so, short fills do not inflate the #s. i stand corrected.

I only have an 11 gallon tank, so many of my fillups may be less than 8 gallons. I actually tie some together as I do partial fillups on occasion too.

An asterix next to the listing for cumulative distances under, say, 600 miles, and footnote to point out the small distance on which that 'average' was based might have exaggerated the normal variance of accuracy might suffice as take-it-with-a-grain-of-salt scepticism.
The 90 day average is a good method, except for those of us with large fuel tanks and fewer than typical number of driving miles. Ninety days may be only one tank of fuel for us, and as a result under some possible imposed miles threshhold.

Yeah, 500 or 600 miles would be reasonable, don't wanna peg it at 15K and have some folks taking two years to make it to the table, it would be discouraging.

Probably 5 tanks is a reasonable limit too, average is starting to settle down by then. Seems a lot of people "guesstimate" their first tank, then put real numbers in after that, if they continue.

Bumping this thread as I feel a bit like this is an issue too, and I'm nowhere near top 10.

IMO, a very simple and easy limit would make it much more fair without being very discouraging.

I would say that in order to be entered the person should need to have entered:

At minimum and in total (i.e. all entries added together must be this much or more):

400 miles and
4 gaslog entries and
20 gallons of fuel used

within the last 90 days.

For those concerned about ruling out people who drive very little or have extremely high MPG vehicles, 400 mi in 90 days is 1600 mi/year, and at 100MPG it would still only require 8000 mi/year to make 20 gallons in 90 days. That could be a little harsh on motorcycles/trikes, so maybe they could have a 10 or 12 gallon requirement? Or maybe there could be a 16 gallon overall requirement, if it would be too difficult to make separate requirements for different categories.

why not also have the top 10 4 wheeled vehicles and top 10 2 (or 3) wheeled vehicles as seperate entities so that motorcycles have their own competition. I know that they are split up if you click on the button, but on the home page.

that way you can have different standards for each. bikes that get 100 or so MPG also have tanks of about a gallon or so. this will allow them to continue to be in THEIR top 10 and give room for the cars as well.

I am no where near the top 10 so it doesn't really concern me but I figured I'd put in a word or two

That one might knock me out. I stretch my fills as far as possible. Some 3-month periods I only have 3 fills.

Wow. Maybe the best thing to do is to listen to everyone's complaints about what might disqualify them, and then use the smallest possible numbers.

What we are really trying to prevent is someone who only has one fillup or only a few miles from filling up the top 10. Oh, and to prevent people who are no longer active from clogging the list (but I think this one may be taken care of already).

Maybe a minimum TOTAL mileage? CleanMPG uses 5000 before giving a skilled/expert rating.
Maybe a time limit since the latest tank, like 6 months or a year?

I think a minimum total mileage of 5000 (or really anything higher than about 1000) could be discouraging to people who don't drive that much. It could take some people a year just to qualify for the listing...

Also, I think you should have to have a fillup in the last 90 days to qualify for top 10. Unless you've got some super huge tank on a geo metro or civic vx, you shouldn't be going 90 days w/o a fillup. You also shouldn't get to ride in the top 10 for a year by having a good set of fillups and then just not entering new data... When I click on the top 10, I want to know who the best are out of people who are still actively participating in the site. Maybe others feel differently about this...

Sounds reasonable to me. 1000 miles eliminates (almost) all single-tank entries.

An entry in the last 90 days also sounds good.

I also think that 1K is reasonable. for me, it would only take about 2 tanks to get that and depending on the time frame, about 2 weeks.

I drive too much.

I would recommend changing the "Gasoline" category to "Automobile".

We need something like this.

But we can't just call it "automobile" because that would be confusing with the Hybrid and Diesel categories...

Maybe we could call then "Gas Autos" "Hybrid Autos" and "Diesel Autos"

As soon as I have the ability I'll implement as much of this as I can.

Hi moderators!

Any news about a change in the 90-day top-ten calculation algorithm?

About half a year ago some guy (TDI'er) made a single fill up, and since then he has been number one on the top-ten diesels!

In my opinion it ruins the fight to be in the top-ten completely!!!!:mad:

This my main compaint. I know i'm not active much but i see top 10 charts and see a one fill scooter or some low mileage fillup and never see person participating in forums. IMHO it's like they just like to see there naem at top of charts even if they know it's not the right area. I know i'll never make top 10 but still nice to see what people are doing that actualy post here and don't just join and make a gas log to see therre name in list.
I actualy get a lil happy to see someone with same car as mine and see how there doing.

Actually the current top-3 on the diesels has NOT entered a single fill up in the last 5-6 month!!!!

Maybe we need a 120 day period between fill-up entries because we don't use fuel quickly enough? It takes a while to burn through 25+ gallons of fuel at 50 mpg, ya know.:p

My personal feeling is this... A 90 day average is just that. If you are only purchasing fuel once every 4 months, then when you fuel up you will be in the 90 day rankings for 90 days, then drop until you fuel again. If staying on the list is important then make sure you top off the tank every 90 days. I don't think that's too much to ask.

-Jay

Well, if someone like that tops off every 90 days and gets smaller amounts, they will spend more miles dragging around more weight in fuel (which may matter more to highly efficient or insufficiently powered vehicles); and worse, they may not put in enough gas to qualify for the list, which shouldn't be based on 8 gallons in 90 days.

However, if you're driving so few miles (let's say 50mpg and a 14 gallon fill -- that's 700 miles, or under 8 miles per day) then your results are probably not meaningful to compare to those who drive ten times as much.

Most days I only drive 5 or 6 miles. I still manage to get fuel at least every 2 weeks, sometimes longer. Most often when I fuel up I only need 1/2 tank, but I do so anyway because I usually am passing a really cheap fuel station. I also go out for a pleasure drive of ~ 100 miles through the mountains every 2 weeks or so. If it wasn't for the Sunday drives I'd have hardly any fillups on my Buick.

-Jay

Here are a few differences between you and a commuter in the effects on FE. Your short trips:

- reduce your vehicle's efficiency, because it never warms up fully, and because you probably aren't cruising at efficient speeds.

- allow you to be significantly more patient; you can drive slower, wait when someone else would go, etc because you don't stand to save any significant time.

- allow you to put far more energy into hypermiling driving techniques than someone who has to make it last for a longer drive.

- make it easier to do uglier FE mods and try attention-grabbing (or possibly vehicle-damaging) techniques because you don't have to worry nearly as much about attracting attention or damaging your vehicle. Those who drive a lot of miles stand to lose more if they can't drive or get a ticket, and are exposed to a lot more chances to get ticketed.

As such, it's not really a fair comparison; your short-trip lowered mechanical efficiency doesn't make up for the advantages.

No, but I don't think its bad to be hitting the EPA highway rating driving in stop & go city traffic :D On a side note, I'm moving this week. I'm moving a little further out, and there is a sweeet hill that I DFCO'ed about 1/2 mile down on my way to work this morning. I also don't feel that I do any vehicle damaging mods, but I am seriously considering a kammback right now with my longer drive, and a stretch of road I can actually get up to 55 MPH. Probably won't happen till next year though. I have a full plate the rest of this year. Between work, the upcoming holiday season, I have to finish moving next week, I've been trying to go down to Florida and visit my uncle for the past few months, and now my best friend has just informed me that he & his wife are expecting their first child so I will travel up to Long Island sometime very soon to help him get the house ready for the child. We figured that blood red walls were not suitable for a baby's nursery, so its painting and childproofing time.

On a side note that's a lot of highway driving I have planned for the next 2 months, so the full effect of all of my mods should be seen soon. By a quick estimate with my GPS it appears that I'm looking at about 2,500 miles of straight highway driving. My 90 day average should really climb between now and the end of the year.

-Jay

Well, if you've got to do a lot more driving than usual, now's a less-bad time, with fuel prices declining and such. :)

Yeah, prices have fallen like a rock this week. I bought gas this weekend in West Virginia for $3.15 and I thought that was a killer deal. (gas @ home was in the $3.30 - $3.40 range.) Now just a mile from my business I can fillup for $2.69. With cheaper prices I still plan on hypermiling because its fun.

-Jay

I think the wakeup call for me is when I worked out how much I was spending in gas in a months time.

it was around the $400 mark. that is when gas was $3.50 the good thing is even with the rising prices, my per month cost of gas didn't increase and actually went down.

I am definitely keeping on with the gassaving tricks that I have learned. if I can get my per month bill down to $200 or so, that would be awesome.

that is for both me and my wife though.

my worry is that with lower prices, the folks that got rid of the SUVs or drove less will say "now I can get the SUV that I really wanted" or that people will start to use fuel for frivolous purposes again causing the price to climb again. my hope is to see gas below $3 per gallon in MY area. the lowest so far has been $3.28 and we still don't have premium at the pumps. North Carolina is strange.

Your worry is valid, and it will happen. I will be part of making it happen. I'm not going to buy an SUV or anything, but my truck has been pretty much rotting in my driveway for a couple months while I've been putting too many miles on my car. If gas gets down to 2.50, I'm parking the car even if there's still no ice/snow on the roads and giving the truck some exercise.

It's a shame...I let the truck sit unused, and its battery died and could not be resurrected. That wouldn't be so bad, but because I'm so short on funds, I decided I just had to steal the battery from the Buick, whose condition I would now downgrade from asleep to comatose. Oh cruel fate! Why do you mock my Buick?

Poor Buick... :( Mine has been parked for a bit as well. With me having to move I've not been driving her much, and since I started the move last week she hasn't moved at all. I need to get her moved to the parking lot @ work so I can use it for my daily errands and just use the truck for commuting.

-Jay

cow,

to drive something you already have is one thing. it is a completely different situation when people trade in their sole source of transportation for something getting around 10-15 mpg. those are the ones that will be complaining when prices go back up. be it a month, a year, a few years.

I have always had a small car. I usually have some sort of play vehicle too though. I like the concept of the spare vehicle. this is one of the few times in my life when I don't have a spare. sold the truck a few months ago and for as much as I drove it, it was getting expensive.

Wow that sucks, I don't know if I could ever sell my truck. Sure it didn't make sense as a commuter, but it's so convenient. It definately needs to be around for winters. If I do end up driving the Festiva most of the time though I may consider something different just because the insurance to keep the truck on the road (and the expensive commercial registration) is a bit annoying annually.

It was the same for me, $400/month gasoline usage sucks. Thank goodness for a free Festiva. I mean my driving helped as much as it could with the truck I'm sure and we're not taking as many spur of the moment trips to the parents house 60 miles a way now. But the Festiva will easily drop almost $150/month off my fuel budget. Right now it's almost broken even for my $150 put in to it so far in 3 weeks (1000 miles).

As for the topic at hand, I thought the top 10 was always based on the 90 day running average, not the lifetime MPG, but the #1 gasoline use right now is a Ruckus that only had 3 tanks, the last of which was May. That's crazy. And the #2 is another Ruckus with a one-shot wonder tank, granted still within the 90 days but clearly not being driven or used.

So first off, how are the Top 10 calculated now? If it's using Lifetime that kind of stinks because it'll take a lot of work to work off the 'sins of the past' if you accurately keep your old, pre hypermiling fuel logs. And I definately acknowledge that we don't want to weed out people that only fill up once every 6 months or so, but really they're not trying for the Top 10 anyway if you think about it.

Too me the biggest issue with the motorcycles, I wouldn't mind fairly loose settings on the other requirements. Maybe these:
You have to have had at least one tank in the last 60 days (or 90, whichever)
You have to have had at least 1000 miles in the past 6 months (or 1 year)
and your MPG and % over EPA will be calculated based on your last 1 year's worth of gas logs. Lifetime sucks, but you can't do 6 months because you'll see seasonal variance. I think 1 year is perfect.

As for issue of short fill tanks, I remember that being corrected over a year ago, it now properly adds up all milage in the last year and divides by all gallons used in the same time frame, not looking at calculated MPG/tank.