Oil: Spend more on better oil for FE?
 

I'm going to change the oil in my VW. It requires VW-approved oil and I have many options. Of course, I looked for low-weight oil.

I found some 0w-30 for $6.87/qt (which I bought), and later found 5w-30 for $3.80/qt (not much more than half). That's $18 difference for my 6 quart oil change.

Is it worth it? Should I make the effort to return the 0w and buy the 5w, or will the 0w pay off in FE over the 10,000 mile interval?

I have found that synthetic always pays off in extended changes... I never felt comfortable in running dino juice for more than 3,000 miles. I'm not sure I feel comfortable letting it go to 10,000 though. I do 5,000 for simplicity. I know if my mileage is divisible by 5,000 my oil change is due. I know without even walking out to the truck, or looking anything up that my next oil change is due @ 155,000 miles. Right now I am at ~ 152,500. I am considering switching it to a 0w oil sooner than 5,000 though. I may change the oil at 153 or 154,000 miles and then let it roll till 160,000 just to even it out again. 5K synthetic oil changes keep a nice clean engine. When I pulled Rusty's oil pan off a few months ago and inspected the crankshaft all internal parts I could see looked clean & like new - and the truck has darn near 190,000 miles on it. Rusty is a special case now, as I don't anticipate putting 5,000 miles a year on him. I told dad we'll change the oil every spring regardless of mileage. - and of course we're sticking with synthetic.

-Jay

Well, only synthetics are approved by VW. The cheaper stuff is Pennzoil Platinum synthetic 5w-30, and the expensive stuff is Castrol Syntec European Formula synthetic 0w-30.

The 10,000 mile interval is per the manufacturer's schedule and I'm fine with it. The leased car only needs to last 45,000 miles...and there's a 50,000 mile warranty.

holycow,
In my experience with my current car (GM 3.8 V6 , 104 000 kms) the fuel difference is about 5% between 20W/50 and 10W/30 with the 10W/30 being slightly more frugal.

This is in mostly highway driving and short trips are rare which may have some bearing on matters.

I am not sure how this relates to your situation but it is at least a starting point.

Cheers , Pete.

I forget that you've leased it. I always operate in "Drive it till the doors fall off, then put em' back on and drive some more" mode.

-Jay

I usually drive it until I can't stand fixing it anymore, which gets worse as repairs get more frequent/expensive, and varies inversely proportional to how much I like the vehicle. This leasing thing is a stop-gap measure to temporarily cut my losses.

Pete, I'll have to do the math for 5% and see... Thanks. :)

I can honestly say I have never hit the "I can't stand fixing it anymore" point. For all practical purposes I should have hit that point on the Buick, but I loved the car so much I didn't care how much I had to fix it.

-Jay

since you already have the stuff, it will cost you to take it back. I mean to say, you have to drive to the store and waste time there returning it and getting the other stuff.

this could also be a good opportunity to experiment. you could see how the mileage goes so you know what to do next time. I have burned more than $20 on a good meal (and lunch for that matter). I say to give it a try. it may pay off, it may not.

I am not too keen on the whole lease thing. I think most have a purchase feature at the end of the lease which I have heard is usually a pretty good deal for the value of the car. you may consider purchasing it if your mileage continues to rise. I know you have put quite a bit of effort into the mileage of that car.

Yeah, I might think about buying it out at the end (or sooner), but probably not. I really like the VW but I'm still not convinced of its longevity, so I'm not sure I want to commit like that to a VW.

I'm almost sure it will be a good deal, though; they apparently retain resale value pretty well, and I just saw a used one with an asking price that looks like MORE than sticker on a new one. If gas prices don't fall to $2.50/gallon again then used little cars will still be in great demand, and book value will be higher than my buyout.

Check it out:
$17,888
https://www.automart.com/vehicledetai.../src-dealerads
25,000 miles
Only option: Sunroof (all those other features are standard)

Brand new 2008 4 door with more power and better EPA rating than the above 2007 model:
MSRP $17,575
https://www.vw.com/rabbit/pricelist/en/us/#/overview

I toyed with trying to turn a profit selling out of my lease and then buy a beater but, besides being an insane idea, I really can't do it for a number of reasons.

But beaters are fun.

-Jay

Where did you find 0W-30? Every time I'm in an auto parts store or WalMart, all I find is 5W-30. Like you, I'm also a RI resident.

Wal-Mart carries 0w30 here in Va. I just helped a friend do his oil change 2 weeks ago and we bought Mobil1 0w30 @ Wal-Mart.

-Jay

I've never seen any brand in 0W30. Even if Mobil carried it, I wouldn't buy it. I've been boycotting Exxon products since the Valdez oil spill in 1989 (and no Mobil products since they merged w/ Exxon). They never took appropriate responsibility for the spill...in fact they fought punitive awards until they were recently reduced from $2.5 billion (originally $5 billion) to $500 million for the approximate 30,000 victims of the spill.

theHolyCow bought Castrol Syntec European Formula synthetic 0W-30, and I'm wondering where he bought it.

Mobil1 is the only 0w oil I have ever seen on a store shelf. Mobil1 is a good oil, and its the only thing I've put in my Buick since the engine was replaced years ago.

-Jay

It's my experience that conventional vs sythetic in the mpg sense is a wash. Not enough difference to pay the extra cost.

Modern conventional oils will go 5k miles easily, and you could go longer with a calm demeanor if you get an analysis done at 7.5k and longer if the oil is holding up. It's a one-time $25 cost for peace of mind.

The key, rather than conv vs syn, is viscosity. While 0w-30 is 0w a low temps, it's still a 30w at operating temp. There are low-visc 30w's and high-visc 30w's. The lowest visc conventional is Havoline Deposit Shield. The lowest visc "synthetic" is Castrol. This is according to a once-widespread viscosity chart available at the BITOG site.

There are actual synthetic oils (not the super-refined conventional oil that calls itself synthetic nowadays) that can increase mpgs. Royal Purple comes to mind. But, their cost is much higher. Extended change intervals would be a must.

I suppose, at the bottom line, it would depend on whether cost/benefit is your goal or whether pure MPGS at whatever cost is your target. My vehicles aren't at all tempermental so I can get away with using about whatever I feel like pouring into them.

I'm working through my oil stash of various brands/visc's. When they're all used up I'll stick with Havoline DS.

Of course, that's out the window in the wife's Prius that'll be here in a couple of weeks. I'll have to start stocking 0w-20 in the stash. My old (now $2000) CRX gets 88% of the MPGs at less than 10% of the cost. But, wife gets what wife wants...most of the time.

I am glad to see someone elce besides me boycotting mobil/exxon for those and other reasons.

Anyway, I have been useing Valvoline Syn in 5w30 in one of my vehicles. I havn't noticed any measureable difference in fuel economy using syn over dino but I feel comfortable with it's better lube properties and my 5,000 mile change intervals. The cost is not that much more depending where I get it.

I was contemplating trying 0w20 recommended for the newer version of my engine but not comphy with that weight oil. I havn't noticed 0w30 syn anywhere. Maybe I havn't really looked.

I am using just 5w 30 dino in the cutlass and it got 30mpg on my last highway trip. It has a lot of miles on it so I will probably keep using dino in it.

Pep Boys in Warwick had that particular 0W-30. When you get to the oil aisle, it's the first one on the right-side top shelf.

I'm pretty sure I've seen 0W-30 and 0W-40 in WalMart but probably only Mobil brand, which won't work for you.

Yup, I haven't tested for that but I wouldn't believe someone who said otherwise. I don't have a choice between synth or dino; the car is a lease and under warranty, so I have to comply with the manufacturer's recommendations -- which require VW-approved oil, all of which is synth.

I do have a choice in my truck, which is about to get some WalMart "Supertech" brand High Mileage 5W-30 dinosaur juice. People seem pretty happy with it and that level of care has brought the truck to a smooth-running 175,000 miles.

This is the subject of my question. I was trying to decide if it was worth a few more dollars for the lower weight oil. If the warm weight was lower then I wouldn't have to question it, but it's the cold weight that is lower and I couldn't decide...

Cost/benefit (or TCO), combined with not having to take the time to go back to a couple stores again. I ended up putting in the more expensive 0W-30, maybe we'll see in the long run if it has any effect...though I really don't have enough data to compare well.

I think your truck takes 5 Quarts... How about 0w28 (4 Qt 0w30, 1 Qt 0w20) or 0w26 (3 Qt 0w30, 2 Qt 0w20 ?

-Jay

Heh, I'm not willing to risk extra internal wear in the truck...I'm hoping to squeeze a lot more miles out of it. Manufacturer says 5W-30, I'll put in 5W-30.

I had over 300,000 miles on my old 74 Chevy when I sold it for more money than I paid for it (after driving it for 3 - 4 years and putting about 60,000 miles on it.) I miss that truck. That thing got 28 MPG highway. I was really excited when I bought Rusty. I was thinking man, imagine how far I can go on dual tanks! Then I found out that the 86 Chevy with a 305 needed dual tanks to go as far as the 74 Chevy with a 350 did on one. The only mods I made to that truck were I converted it to an electronic ignition from a 75 Chevy van, platinum plugs, aftermarket cruise control, and I flipped the bonnet on the air cleaner upside down and drove it like my grandfather on a Sunday drive. Oh, and the A/c was cold enough to frost up the windows if it was left on Max.

I'm switching the beast to 0W on the next change. I don't think you'll do any damage switching to a 0w.

-Jay

Having seen a 1982 Nissan 200 SX with 540,000 miles on the original engine, without even a head gasket. An engine that was as clean as brand new inside at over half a milliion miles.

I will use the recommended 5W-30 oil in my VX and keep changing it 3 times in 10,000 miles until sometime in the future, about 8 years from now, when I will have to find a replacement.

regards
gary

As to leasing cars, perhaps the worse financial decision Americans make is to lease a car, and nine times out of ten it is a horrible financial thing to do.

Exceptions are those that can write off the monthly payments, often these folks are business owners, or are provide a car allowance by their companies.

I would stay far, far away from leasing unless you're one of the few that can write off or have the expense off set. Lease are often heavily bias toward the leasor making the money and the leasee being screwed.

My neighbor has leased Camry's exclusively for more then 18 years, and replaces them ever two or so years, and his total expenditure for doing this insane move is over $100,000, and each Camry he turned in had nothing wrong with them, low miles, and he does not have the ability to write off the payments, nor is he provided a car allowance by his employer...and to add salt to the wound, he is a CPA and should know better...the idiot!

Had he purchased just 1-3 Camry's in that same time frame he'd have saved tens of thousands of dollars.

You are right, it does not make sense to "normal" folks why one would lease, except for people who could write it off. I would suggest this though. There are people out there that just want a new car every year or two. For these people a lease is a good deal too, because their monthly payments are lower than if they bought the car, drove it for a year or two, then traded it in on another.

-Jay

The "heart", the subjective part of the brain, says it is a "good deal" for those folks that can't write the payments off.

This never makes it right. It is still wrong. The fact that some people want a new car every few years is about the lamest excuse one can come up with to justify a lease. Lower payments are not even close to a decent justification for leasing.

Better to listen to the "objective" part of the brain because it is usually right all the time. Delayed-gratification is often a concept most materialistic, consumer driven folks know nothing of. I know a dumb-a$$ that rents a house down the street from us. $2,800/month, and he has a working wife and three kids. What does the idiot do? He buys a brand new Suburban maxed out with more electronics that exists at Best Buy, and he leased the vehicle for over $600/month, not to mention the $500/month for gas, and $160/month for insurance. But I'm sure he could easily use the same justifications you wrote of to "justify" it. Oh, and he leased, yes leased the $4,000+ 21" spinner wheels for it too!

And besides, you'll not find one single financial planner in the USA that would agree with you ;-)

But hey, it's your money, and you're entitled to wasting it any way you see fit ;-)

In summary, it is exceedingly stupid for anyone to lease a car unless they can either write it off, or receive a car allowance from their employer...this really is a black & white matter...

My point was that if the person was going to purchase a new car every year anyway, it would get them a nicer car for a lower payment. I would never do it, but if you were never going to pay the car off, and just trade it back in then leasing is a good deal too.

-Jay

LOL, this again...

I'm quite aware of the financial calculations involved with leasing. I'm fully congizant of the meaning and application. I've always been entirely against the idea, and like you, even took time to chide those jerks who admitted to having committed the capital crime of leasing.

Then I got to a point where it was the least intolerable option available. My choices were:

1. Buy a new $30,000 truck in two years, and spend time/money repairing the old one often in the meantime, possibly having to rent a vehicle to get to work sometimes.

2. Get a loan to buy a beater, if the bank would even offer such a loan (I doubt it). I'd also have to buy a dolly so I can tow the car to the mechanic and drive the less-broken vehicle back, and possibly occasionally pay a tow truck to drag my truck there when it's too broken to even tow the car there.

3. Swallow my pride and lease a brand new car to extend my truck's life. My monthly costs are the same as if I kept driving the truck (gas savings pay for lease, insurance, maintenance, etc). Three years later I'll still have a useful truck, having paid no more than if I kept the truck and turned the odometer.

I was in no condition to buy a decent car. :( I've effectively bought 45,000 miles of life for my truck.

You won't do any damage. The 0w is still thicker than the oil at operating temp. It's just thinner than the 5w at start up. It may be slightly thinner once warmed up, but the viscosity varies between brands anyway. The numbers on the bottle are just a labeling system, and don't have a direct correlation to what the viscosity actually is. The numbers rether toa viscosity range.

For example, the Castrol 0w-30 is thick for a 30, and is close to a 40. The Mobil synthetics are on the thinner side. The oil manufacturers should have spec sheets up on their sites with the exact numbers.

I've seen an increase in economy between oil types in the Prius, but it was a change of 5w-30 to 0w-20. It was likely the 30 to 20 change mostly responsible. The 0w may of had a slight edge over the 5w-20 I later tried during the winter. With an hybrid or excessive EOCing, the extra thinness when cooled may help.

I'm currently using a 5w-20 in the HHR, and haven't seen that much of an improvement. I think my technique is more responsible. I'm going back to a 30 weight next change. GM uses an oil monitoring system that is calibrated for dino oil in the car. I'd like to try a 0w during the winter, but I'm hesitant to go synthetic do to that system.

As long as we're discussing viscosities, what might be the long term effects of switching an engine that the MFR recommended 5w30 in 1998 to a 0w20? I'm currently operating Mobil 1 5w30 synthetic, and have for the past ~40,000 miles. I am definately switching to a 0w oil on my next change, but I have been toying with the idea of maybe doing 4 quarts of 0w30, and 1 qt of 0w20, or even pondering switching entirely to a 0w20. The Beast has an "old skool" small block 350 in it with 152,000 miles. Does not leak or burn oil. My oil consumption is ~ 1 Qt every 4,000 miles or so, and most of that is probably wiped off the dipstick as I check my oil every time I put gas in it. Also, with a 5,000 mile change interval my oil never turns black. It gets dark brown, but I've never seen black oil in it.

-Jay

Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy is a 0w oil. They offer 0w-20 and 0w-30. I think I filled my car with the 30 and topped it off with the 20 before a trip. The AFE oil is actually cheaper than the normal Mobil 1 by a few dollars and is why I got it.

Since winter is coming and my car is nearing the 10k change point I will probably just fill it with the 20.

I re-read this post.

The first time around I missed "the lease part". I won't get into my feelings on leases but lease = it is not your car. So since you already bought the oil use it and see if there is a mpg benefit with the 0w over the heavier weight oil. Even if you got 1/2 mpg more out of it, I would think that over your extended drain interval of 10,000 miles as you mentioned, you would be a little ahead on your extra $18 expendature.

As an aside, I switched 5w30 dino to 5w30 syn in a vehicle right after engine break in and had trouble trying to discern an actual mpg increase. Just too many variables in my driving at the time. But that was the same weight oil but I would imagine if you went to the 0w there might/should be a more discernable difference. They claim it is a fuel saveing weight, but I don't know how much of that is advertising BS so I guess you have to try it yourself and see if it works in your application, as it is difficult for an individual to do a scientific test where you can eliminate all variables. I still use the syn over dino in that vehicle, but mainly because I believe it has better lube qualities.

You better read your owners manual. All new VW's require European Spec 505.1, no substitutes! I run Amsoil 505.1 European oil in my 05 VW Jetta TDI with 10,000 mile oil change intervals and the oil is still brown when I take it in. By the way My wife has put 50,000 miles on the car since Oct. 07 adding up to a total of 98,ooo miles on the car.