PBS tonight: Who Killed the Electric Car? (Sony pictures)
 

Who Killed the Electric Car is a movie/documentary presented in the style of a murder mystery.

There's a program about it on PBS tonight (they're not showing the movie itself).

https://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/index.html

https://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar

There's a trailer on the Sony site.

They really killed them too - GM, Toyota, Ford, Honda - they all crushed & shredded or shipped their EVs out of the US. (After the crushing started, some of those companies were shamed by public protests into selling some of the cars rather than destroying them.)

I think GM was the one that really killed them. The other companies were sandbagging the ZEV mandate, and CARB knew it. GM made the real deal, the EV1, and low sales were enough to convince them to drop the mandate. That might have had more to do with being a $70k Insight with a pitiful range that you couldn't actually buy even if there wasn't a waiting list, but they painted it as a failure of the electric concept.

They seemed to be spiteful about it too. It used very expensive and inefficient chargers for no good reason. They got the state to pay for a bunch, which quickly became worthless eyesores. They also made the 140-mile NiMH version right as the mandate was collapsing. It was what people had thought an electric car could be all along. Then they systematically destroyed every last one.

Let's not blame it all on GM. Honda had an EV with a range between 100 and 180 miles.

https://www.hondaev.org/acar.html

https://www.austinev.org/evalbum/popupimg.php?2050https://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/268/268a.jpg

https://www.austinev.org/evalbum/268.html

Honda EV+, RIP

not so
 

Hey if you guys were following the goings on over the past year you would know that it was more a legal liability issue as the cars aged and they didn't want to stock parts. People who had leased them didn't want to give them up and offered to buy them at any price and GM refused. Saw one at the Alt Wheels Fest a couple of years ago and the Mayor of Newton drove one - they are supposed to be the best made EV vehicle (EV1) using some top secret stealth technology with proper EMF shielding not found in hybrids today. A lot of people don't need more than 100 -150 mile range.

psssttt....
can't wait to watch it
https://www.mininova.org/tor/336022

Thanks :)

Even at the low end of that(100 miles), I could almost go three days to work and back. Probably almost 4 if I didn't have to drive to work in the dark.:p Actually, I would charge it every night so the batteries would last longer.:)

Thank you

Even when a legal binding contract to waive GM of all parts liability and safety liability was presented, GM still refused to sell the car.

The only reason the EV1 would have been a "$70k Insight" is production volume. GM intentionally kept that small, then inflated the price.

The first EV1s only went 50 miles per charge, due to a faulty battery. Lessees often replaced them with off the shelf Optimas or Hawkers and got 90-100 miles highway range, on lead acid batteries. Eventually, replacement lead acid batteries were made by Delphi that offered the intended range and reliability.

The NiMH EV1 achieved roughly 140-160 miles range, at least 100 miles if driven as hard as possible, and over 200 miles has been demonstrated in Tour De sol runs with very gentle driving. Basically, for your average person, this translates to 150 miles range.

Who killed the electric car?

The U.S. Federal Government, the oil industry, and the auto industry did.

-The U.S. Department of Justice filed an amicus brief supporting GM, DaimlerChrysler and others in their federal lawsuit against California’s ZEV mandate.

-Former Chief of Staff and former General Motorist Lobbyist Andrew Card acted as plaintiff against the State of California.

-The oil industry made blatantly false advertisements and statements about EVs and their technology.

-The oil industry set up and funded organizations with the declared intent of "stalling or preventing the adoption of battery electric vehicles in California and elsewhere".

-The oil industry conspired to prevent utility companies from setting up EV charging infrastructure.

-Chevron bought out the NiMH battery patent and are setting a restriction on the size of the modules produced and charging well above the battery's retail price by the original developer for use in hybrids.

-The auto industry spread around misleading or even wholly dishonest information on EVs.

-The auto industry attempted to suppress information on battery technology.

-The auto industry made misleading and dishonest statements about the existing and future market for EVs.

-The auto industry outright refused to lease and/or sell the vehicles to willing customers with cash on hand willing to pay the advertised price.

-Auto industry lobbyists spent millions of dollars printing ads in opposition to EVs that their companies developed.

-The auto industry artificially inflated the production costs of their vehicles using wholly unconventional accounting methods.


Today, we have the technology for 200-300 miles range in a 5 passenger midsize car or small SUV, 0-60 mph in 3 seconds and 240 mph top speed for a sports car, and the ability to make an affordable midsize EV with at least 300 miles range and 0-60 mph in < 8 seconds for ~$20,000-25,000.

That NiMH battery patent Chevron Texaco is squatting on? ECD chairman Robert Stemple quoted them at $150/kWh for production volume of 20,000 cars per year. Cycle life is 1,750 to 100% discharge, shelf life not even a factor. Basically, a 50 kWh pack to give an aerodynamic midsize car 250 miles range would have been $7,500 in mass production and lasted well over 300,000 miles.

Had these cars not been suppressed, we'd have roughly 1-5 million of them on the road today in the United States, depending on who you talk to.

Thread revival.. I just watched the documentry this past weekend for the first time. Thought provoking, I wonder how many other technologies are available and because of advance technology get in the way of large coperations making a profit, technologies get burried and becomes unaware to the public?

I wonder how old this patent is. Buying a patent and mothballing it only works for a short period of time, Once the patent expires the design is in the public domain, and anybody can build it.

I suppose if you call 17 years a "short period of time", sure.

When I've brought up the battery patent issue in other threads, people have pointed out some decent data showing that it's not an issue after all.

My point is that an oil company buying patents... Be they for 300 MPG carburetors, or miracle battery packs, only keeps this technology off the market temporarily. Eventually the public will have access to it.

Here, in fact, is the link to the patent, drawings, etc. of the famed "200 MPG" carburetor: https://www.rexresearch.com/pogue/1pogue.htm

AFAIK, you can look up ANY patent online, even if "some oil company bought the rights to suppress it".

EDIT:

Originally, I had provided the link to the U.S. Pat. Off. website, but it was only giving me the first page of each patent. According to their website, they are supposed to be putting up a whole new system tomorrow. Maybe that's why I can't get more than one page (I used to be able to page through patents).

Anyway, these patents are reproduced various places on the web.

I watched that movie recently, it was OK but not that impressive. Pretty much a rehash of what I had read in the papers and on the web.

Remember the GM "Impact"? (Kind of an unfortunate name...) That was the prototype for the EV1. Several went around to people to try out for a short period of time. In 1995 or so, I was running a store in Newhall, CA. Someone brought one to my parking lot and was doing doughnuts. I was pretty impressed by the pickup the car had.

A few of the other EVs did find their way into private hands...one evening a couple years ago I found myself following Ed Begley, Jr. driving his Toyota RAV-4 (NiMH or Li-ION on the back window, don't remember now which it was) down Ventura Blvd in Studio City, CA.

GM manages to make bad names work...just consider the Avalanche.

Its hard to top AMC for bad car names. Yeah, I'll buy a Gremlin! How about a Matador station wagon for the family? Not many Americans realize that matador literally means "killer" in Spanish. Would you put your family in a car named "The Killer"?

I think my all-time favorite is one from the mid '30s -- Studebaker Dictator.

Great movie... but showed some obvious biases... I would still be leary about getting an electric car... (bc i could only charge it up at Costco!!)

An electric car could be perfect for me. On days I work I drive about 10 miles total, and I could run an extension cord out the back door of the store to charge the car.

I like the electric car charging spaces at Costco...two spaces I get to park in close to the door...there not being an electric car which can use those chargers within battery range of the Costco I frequent!

I work at a college. You know how academia is about environmentalism; I bet they'd make a special parking space for me and I could charge my car for free.

I like the Costco comments since those spaces are always empty when I get there. I wonder if the plug-ins that are coming out in the next couple of years will be able to use these same recharge stations or whether Costco will put another couple stations in the spaces next to them?

i wonder how many of the conspiracy theorists watched this documentary in its entirety?

there is no conspiracy, at least not the big oil one. the producer(s) concluded that many things/groups were to blame.

Agreed. After reading so many posts about it, I was quite surprised when I actually watched it.

Wait one second, why did the automakers have to crush the cars then? That shows a clear conspiracy to control the markets.

Today if you look for a used EV S-10 on Ebay expect to pay over $25,000 in barely running condition.

My point is that there has always been demand and the consumers would have bought these vehicles without warranty.

California law required them to continue producing parts and offering service for 15 years.

Kinda hard if the cars no longer exist.

That's why the cars were destroyed. They didn't want to continue to support it.

Everytime i'm at a costco i see those E-car spaces & they are taken up by bigAss SUV's! It really pisses me off:thumbdown:
In regard to the movie: one question.... Why did GM/Saturn build a car that used zero gasoline? It doesn't make sense to me.... GM has built terribly inefficient cars for years (Tahoe's, Suburban's, etc...) & then they suddenly decide to build a car that uses no gas? C'mon!

It was because, here in the Country of the Deity of Your Choice, there was a mandate that by 2000, at least 2% (IIRC) of all cars sold had it be zero emissions cars.

Don't be so hard on GM...they've also built Geo Metros, Chevrolet Sprints (OK, that was Suzuki, but who's counting?), Chevettes, and an Oldsmobile back in the '60s that was optimized for best FE.

GM builds what its customers will actually pay for, and what the law requires.

One question I thought of yesterday, which is probably easy to answer but I didn't think of the answer: Why hasn't another company made use of the R&D that went into the EV1 and built a similar (but not patent-infringing) car? If you believe certain things that you read on the internet, there's plenty of people willing to pay plenty of money.

As I see it, the main patent in contention is the one for the battery pack. So, for a majority of time since it's demise, a potential company would limited to lead acid or a NimH pack smaller than the patent. The first EV1, with lead acid batteries, only had a range of 50 to 75 miles. The NimH pack nearly doubled that.

The range and cost of an EVclone with lead acid would likely not be successful. A larger pack isn't a simple answer because of the increased weight. The Tango still seems to be selling, but it is a radical design from the conventional car.

I guess a mixed pack of lead acid and NimH might have worked, but I don't would be needed to mesh the power coming from the two packs into the drive train.

Lithium batteries have only recently become feasible for cars, and then the first one to market, Tesla, is in the super sport niche to help cover the battery costs. Their next model is going to be a luxury sedan.
It sounds like Nissan will be leasing the battery pack for the Leaf out instead of selling it with the car.

So EVclones weren't made because the NimH patent was needed at the time for a successful model.

There is some skepticism about the effect of that patent issue.
https://www.gassavers.org/showthread....162#post138162

If Cobasys really wants the market, then why aren't they in it?
The Prius pack was sized to be under the patent limit, and supposedly, you can't get a replacement for the Rav4 EV. Toyota likely wants to stick with their partners at home, but that doesn't explain why Ford and GM have stuck to smaller packs or gone with lithium. I understand wanting to maximize your profit, but you still have to actually sell product. Pricing it higher than what customers are willing to pay ends up being the same as not selling it at all.

LiFe phosphate batteries are starting to come to market. If they really want to make money off their patent, they are running out of time.

The patent conspiracy argument says that Cobasys is purposely pricing it out of the market precisely so that they won't sell it, because they are 50% owned by Chevron.

Back in the EV1's heyday, cheap gas was also a factor.
That doesn't explain their lack of involvement in the market now. Perhaps lithium has enough of a weight and size edge over NimH for it to be the preferred battery in modern EV car design. On the other hand, a few owners have improved their milage by just expanding the Prius battery pack. Adding a few more cells should not have broke the bank on Toyota's end, if it would have improved performance of the Prius.

Try finding a Li-Ion cell larger than D right now. Nearly impossible. If found, they come from overseas with no warranties. Oh and the US dollar is really hurting those imports.

My thoughts aswell.....if its was all the gov ,auto ind and oil giants fault then what would happen if one was made RIGHT NOW where everyone is wanting to 'go green' ......scrap your old banger and get a new fuel efficient car (UK) etc ?

It also seems odd to me that GM at the time, built the most advanced BEV in the EV1. Since then, they haven't been able to build a decent hybrid electric vehicle, with the CEO even saying that hybrids were a passing fancy. Now GM's future is tied up in the success of failure of the Volt PHEV. GM just seems like a company without a rudder to me.