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Old 02-04-2007, 12:43 PM   #31
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brick -

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Originally Posted by brick View Post
An increase in NOx emissions at a roughly stoichiometric ratio kind of surprises me. We did cold start testing in a university lab with big-$$$ exhaust gas analyzers and the reduction in NOx was pretty darned big. There are obvious differences between what we did and what he's doing, though. We had perfectly controlled lab conditions, our fuel was gasoline-like but not precisely gasoline, and our hydrogen went directly into the manifold from a bottle. I'm going to have to think about that one.
I may be misrepresenting his findings, so I suggest you go here to read what he said on the emissions :

Emissions Analysis With Hydrogen Boost
http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/August%202006.html

Most of the non-compliant NOx was under heavy throttle.

CarloSW2
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Old 02-06-2007, 12:35 AM   #32
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warm air intake?

someone here mentioned warm air intake... I too used to think it was really neat. With engines rarely approaching 100% volumetric efficiency (except for some Gale Banks projects) ram air, cold air intakes, turbos and pumps of all sorts, intercoolers... which have all been proven to make ICEs MORE efficient. The more air - the hotter it gets when compressed.
Now you have dense warm/hot air to which you can add more fuel - each combustion cycle now produces more power, in turn your engine's RPM are lowered (multiple benefits, longevity, power, efficiency...)

Instead you would prefer thin warm air?

WHY
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Old 02-06-2007, 04:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by 70 mpg jetta View Post
WHY
Because it works the other way around. Cold air is denser, containing more oxygen which can handle more fuel which, in turn, produces more power. Warm air is less dense, containing less oxygen, which requires less fuel to run stoichiometric and, predictably, results in less power. One could argue that it might result in better fuel vaporization under some circumstances, too, for a better burn.

More powerful and more efficient are not necessarily the same thing. Sometimes, yes. But not in the case of intake air temp.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:09 AM   #34
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brick -

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Originally Posted by brick View Post
Because it works the other way around. Cold air is denser, containing more oxygen which can handle more fuel which, in turn, produces more power. Warm air is less dense, containing less oxygen, which requires less fuel to run stoichiometric and, predictably, results in less power. One could argue that it might result in better fuel vaporization under some circumstances, too, for a better burn.

More powerful and more efficient are not necessarily the same thing. Sometimes, yes. But not in the case of intake air temp.
Yes, and also, it appears that it can be drivetrain specific. I think that RH77 has not had very good results with his Acuras (or maybe he hasn't found the car's HAI sweet spot?). For Saturns, it appears that there is something in the drivetrain that responds to the HAI and creates a lean-burn situation. I am betting the ECU/PCM software. I originally got my info on it by reading about a guy named cheapybob in the saturnfans forum before I joined GasSavers :

Modified air intake for hot air added 7.2% to mpg
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71674

My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74808

HAI Pictures
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sea...earchid=781159

Cheapybob's theory is that :

if CAI => more HP => more fuel injection => less MPG
then HAI => less HP => less fuel injection => more MPG

For Saturns, this does seem to be true.

What's nice is that it is a cheap mod that you can remove if it doesn't work, and the ScanGauge will give you immediate feedback on the IAT input.

This is definitely a YMMV scenario,

CarloSW2
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Old 02-08-2007, 05:14 PM   #35
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49 Mpg

Hello -

This is the first time with the Hydrogen Booster running. I am comparing it to the 51.5 MPG run without the booster because the weather and traffic conditions are similar.

MPG : 49 (5.1% decrease from 51.5 MPG)
Route : 10 West -> 710 South -> 105 West -> 405 South -> Exit Freeway
Miles : 27.7
MPH Avg: 47
MPH Max : 65
RPM Max : 2768
Gallons : 0.6
IAT Reading : Hot Air Intake led to Input Air Temp readings of 116 to 125 degrees F.
Average Engine Coolant Temps : about 181+ degrees F

Net Elevation Change : ~210 feet drop

Weather : 59.5 degrees F, cloudy, 55.5% Humidity, 43 degrees F Dew Point
Time : ~10:30 AM to ~11:00 AM, ~30 minutes

Recent Car Changes :
I disabled the DRLs (Daytime Running Lights) again to gain up to 10 Amps. Hydrogen Booster on.

Hypothesis :
I think that the additional oxygen coming with the hydrogen caused the ECU/PCM to increase the amount of fuel into the injectors. Why do I think this? In my 51.5 MPG run, I was seeing average coolant temperatures up to about 195 degrees F. Today, the average coolant temps were around 181 degrees F. To me, the coolant temp allows me to infer the engine temp. In a lean-burn situation, the engine temperature is hotter (right?!?!?!?!), so a richer Air/Fuel mixture cools the engine off (yes?!?!?!?!). The cooler engine lead to cooler HAI (Hot Air Intake) temps too, so that is a negative synergistic effect (grill block time?!?!?!).

To test this theory on Friday, I am going to do half of the run with the booster on and half of the run with the booster off. If the coolant temp goes up when the booster's off, then I think I will have a pretty good cause and effect.

Finally, the extra load on the engine with the booster running was above 20 Amps.

This outcome is predictable because the hydrogen booster system requires me to install other circuits to "spoof the sensors". But, again, I want to do one thing at a time.

PS - Maybe the hamsters I keep on board were tired today. They stayed up late watching a Hamtaro marathon so maybe they couldn't spin the wheel-generators fast enough, .

NOTE : All this stuff is pure conjecture at this moment. This is a non-scientific observational test only, it's way too early in the game. The MPG difference is not statistically significant. I really need a datalogger or a controlled test to know what is happening.

Caveats :
The MPG loss could just be traffic and weather. Traffic was worse than the 51.5 run, so I hit the brakes more, and it is a colder more humid day today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfg83
SOURCE : http://www.gassavers.org/showpost.ph...postcount=1418
Hello -

This is not a personal best, but instead an attempt to quantify what has changed from my previous run :

MPG : 51.5 (9.51% decrease from previous all-time best )
Route : 10 West -> 710 South -> 105 West -> 405 South -> Exit Freeway
Miles : 27.9
MPH Avg: 49
MPH Max : 61
RPM Max : 2616
Gallons : 0.5
IAT Reading : Hot Air Intake led to Input Air Temp readings of 125+ degrees F.

Net Elevation Change : ~210 feet drop

Weather : 64.5 degrees F, cloudy, 50% Humidity, 45 degrees F Dew Point
Time : ~12:00 PM to ~12:30 PM, ~30 minutes

blah blah blah
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:50 PM   #36
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Carlo - you've got a healthy/critical grasp on the situation (note & caveats). Nice to see.

Watching with interest.
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Old 02-14-2007, 07:44 AM   #37
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I used to start my Rambler ... and it ran just fine in freezing weather when the gas would not carburate in the SU carb I had.
A Rambler with a SU carb.??? Wicked ! -Ted Hart
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Old 08-01-2007, 08:21 PM   #38
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I would imagine you need to remove the Oxygen if it's chillin' w/ the diatomic Hydrogen to see any efficiency gains. From what I've read, Hydrogen injection allows for lower activation energy of the intake charge, so NOx is reduced. This allows for a leaner mixture to be used along w/ the subsequent increase in efficiency from the reduction in pumping losses. You may have better luck w/ the hydrogen being injected post MAF, or post however Saturns measure the incoming air.
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Old 08-01-2007, 09:23 PM   #39
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omgwtfbyobbq -

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Originally Posted by omgwtfbyobbq View Post
I would imagine you need to remove the Oxygen if it's chillin' w/ the diatomic Hydrogen to see any efficiency gains. From what I've read, Hydrogen injection allows for lower activation energy of the intake charge, so NOx is reduced. This allows for a leaner mixture to be used along w/ the subsequent increase in efficiency from the reduction in pumping losses. You may have better luck w/ the hydrogen being injected post MAF, or post however Saturns measure the incoming air.
The system does not separate the oxygen out, .

In the installation procedure, there are multiple options for mods to the 02 sensor *and* the MAP/MAF sensor. That put me in a bind because I wasn't ready to make those changes.

One option for the MAP/MAF sensor is to replace it with a potentiometer and thereby control the signal that the ECU/PCM receives. You basically have to build your own table of settings for your fake MAP/MAF sensor. That kind of mod is outside my comfort range, so this mod is off the table for now.

One of the installation options was the EFIE/02 sensor mod, so I am only pursing that, not the MAP/MAF mod.

Question : If I am using the EFIE to create lean-burn, is it possible that the hydrogen booster will mitigate the increase in NOx that comes with lean-burn? For me, this would be a "success" because I would be invoking lean-burn without the emissions consequences.

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Old 08-01-2007, 10:32 PM   #40
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It may, up to a point, since diatomic Hydrogen *supposedly decreases NOx formation. The thing is, it depends on how much Hydrogen and Oxygen the electrolysis dealy can make. Pm'd j00.
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