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Old 09-09-2008, 05:20 AM   #11
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BEEF: If you were in Europe you would also be paying about triple what you pay in America for fuel.
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by DarbyWalters View Post
Uneducated opinions like that are why they will not come to the USA. Diesel technology has made Diesel burn as clean or better than gasoline. A Diesel Hybrid would be the best combo available right now...then a small diesel...then a gasoline hybrid...then a gas sipper.
Oh really? Have you looked into the component cost of a diesel particulate filter lately? Do you know the difference between T2B5 vs LEV, SULEV and PZEV in terms of start up NOx emissions? How about the effect of a continued start stop cycle on a diesel particulate filter and NOx trap in something like... oh i don't know a diesel electric hybrid?
The sad truth is its more expensive to clean up the exhaust of a diesel to meet California emissions than to build a hybrid. Add in the 25% premium for fuel and all of a sudden diesel is toast in America. Most of the industry gets it. VW and Mercedes are losing money on the TDIs and CDIs bringing into the country today. They are hoping and praying that if they can establish brand name for themselves to the point where TDI is synonymous for diesel in the general public's mind, by the time the cost of exhaust after treatment comes down they'll have an established market share in this country. Unfortunately just like catalytic converters, diesel particulate filters use precious metals. You can cut down on the use of precious metals and improve long term reliability with chemical after treatment. But when you add up the cost of all the emissions control devices ( temp sensors, O2 sensors, 2 catalytic converters, particulate trap and Addblue tank and hoses etc.) the cost becomes astronomical. This is on top of the cost of the engine itself and the $100 a pop piezo injectors. The rest of the ECU, wiring and sensors for a diesel engine are on par with gasoline engines. Even turbos are cheap these days.

You know the "bean counters" that everyone likes to hate whenever a car interior looks too cheap or an engine option doesn't make it to America? I'm one of them.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:25 AM   #13
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I know that the euro market is about 3x our cost as far as fuel. that is why I wouldn't move

also, the insight does get better MPG but now you deal with batteries and they don't make them anymore. I know the prius needs it batteries swapped every 5-10 years at a cost of 3+k which makes me not want a hybrid. also it makes fixing it yourself almost not possible or not worth it. plus the added cost of the hybrid vs conventional vehicles. if that vehicle was made in the states, they could probably sell it for half that cost. there again they wouldn't recoup the initial investment thus we won't see it.

mostly due to people that don't like the diesels. as stated in the report
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:31 AM   #14
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Emissions chemical replacement and the premium price for ULSTDF is going to hurt US diesel sales, despite the newer light duty diesels about to appear in showrooms. I own a Ford diesel now, but I won't consider a new diesel truck for those reasons.

For light duty trucks, only Ford has my answer in development: A turbochaged lean burn direct injection V6. This F 150 engine will approach diesel efficiency at a cost far below diesel.

So, I'm going to drive my old diesel until the wheels fall off, or somebody makes a 25 mpg 4x4 truck.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:46 AM   #15
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1: No contest that DPF are costly, but as costly as Evap systems, 3 way cats, O2 sensors and all the other clap-trap needed to clean up gasoline engines?
2: What 25% diesel premium? My B100 biodiesel, purchased at retail, set me back $3.999 last Saturday. Find me $3.20 gallon gasoline. When I can get it, a friend who makes his own biodiesel sells his occasional surplus production at his cost, $1.20 gallon last time. When did you last see $0.999 gasoline?
The added operating efficiency of the compression ignition engine makes the fuel go further. If the price per gallon difference were indeed 25% , the fuel efficiency difference of 40% would still result in a per mile cost reduction
3: VW and Mercedes (and Ford, and Chrysler, and GM) sell diesels in Europe at a premium, because consumers there 'get' it. The consumers there have analyzed the cost / benefit and make a decision and prefer diesels because of their lower fuel cost, lower operation cost, lower environmental cost. In addition to the CO, HC and NOx, they also rank the CO2, which is by far the greatest emission and something the LEV, SULEV, PZEV classifications convieniently choose to ignore.
Roughly 55% of passenger vehicles sold in Europe are diesel. Why should the manufacturers there pay to ship cars here to sell when they can command a premium at home and not spending the shipping costs?
If it weren't for the domestic auto manufacturer's profitable European operations, and their 55% diesel production, the US operations would haven been shuttered for lack of operating funds.
4: VW is able to beat the CARB limits of tier2 bin5 without the Urea 'ad-blue' pretreatment. I won't pretend that T2B5 is an ideal or a final goal, but it is a big hurdle.
5: Injectors are significantly more costly than $100. Was that a typo? $1,000 is more like it. Fortunately they don't fail or require replacement at a high attrition rate.

Self avowed "bean counter"? Well, better that than used car sales or personal injury lawyer...
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:45 AM   #16
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sludgy,

the fact is that the wheels probably will fall off before the engine gives out. diesel engines last a lot longer than gas is what I am getting at.

there are a few "million mile" clubs. most of them are diesel cars. hard to find gas engines with a million on the clock.

another reason to get a diesel.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:01 AM   #17
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Yeah i agree i have three diesels two over 200,000 and one over 350,000
they last a long time and are still running great. Infact i keep really good care of my cars so there is little if no rust on any of them and that is hard to do with ohio's road salt and weather
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:31 AM   #18
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The million mile diesels are interesting, but I don't see why 200,000 miles is special. I routinely see more than that on gas engines, and rarely see gas engines fail with so few miles on them. Mainly I see the rest of the vehicle falling apart before the engine, which makes me wonder why anyone would care to have an engine that can last a million miles.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:46 AM   #19
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Yeah i guess just in the area im from i talk to people and most of there cars get way to expensive to fix once they get above 100,000. So i thought that since i am over 200,000 and still not having to do that much repairs i thought was pretty impressive, i probably should have checked with more people other than the ones i know
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:51 AM   #20
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the diesel trucks usually last as long as the engine.

I come from farm land so I know how rough farmers can be on a truck and they want it to last 15-20 years. that is where the diesels really shine. those trucks (3 qtr to 1 ton) are made to run for a long time because the people that usually buy them intend to use them. half tons are made differently than they used to. I think the larger ones are still built just as strong. I am giving all large truck makers credit on this one and not saying one is better than the other because they all make lemons and they all make awesome trucks...it depends on your experience with them more than anything
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