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Old 07-05-2016, 02:28 AM   #21
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I don't know about conventional cars with fossil fuel engines being banned in cities, I know in the US it's not going to happen, for a long time. But here is an article proving my point, if you need some more, I can easily pull up more articles
Tesla’s Electric Cars Aren’t as Green as You Might Think | WIRED

Note if they do become banned, then you might as well ride a pedal bike
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:45 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Draigflag View Post
An electric cars looses up between 80% and 90% of it's value after 3 years, that compared to a petrol/diesel car which looses 40% average, so it's twice as bad, and given that electric cars are usually more expensive initially, then it's actually a lot worse than that.
How much does a smart phone depreciate? Right now, electric cars are suffering from the fast battery development, like other high tech items, when it comes to depreciation. Which is compounded by high government incentives on the cars.

For those that plan to buy and keep a new EV car for some time, the incentives make the cars very affordable in some states. In most cases, the battery will be usable for the 'life' of the car; pushing 100k miles and 10 years of age. Most cars will only be worth a fraction of their new price by that point.

For those that only plan to keep a new EV for a short time, leasing is the best deal. The incentives' value are usually included in the lease rate, and they don't have to worry about the depreciation.

For the more frugal that want to try a BEV, the current depreciation means they can get used cheap.

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I think the previous poster is referring to the different types of chargers on each car, they should all be universal, but each manufacture seems to have their own connector, which from what I've read can lead to episodes where the car will not charge at all on certain charging stations, leading to the car being towed.
In the US, there is one standard for level 2 charging. You'll have to wait longer for a charge, but you won't have to call for a tow. There are the two competing fast charging standards, but many of the chargers getting installed now have both plugs.

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Another thing that affect depreciation is the battery is only warrantied for 5 years here, even though it will last way longer, most people are still under the illusion that once a warranty expires, you're instantly going to have to fork out on expensive repairs, meaning a 5 year old EV will put a lot of people off just for the uncertainty of battery repairs.
Well, people are ignorant. It wasn't that long age that ICE power trains only had 36k or 60k mile warranties. So makes still have that. Do those people think they have to rebuilt the engine after the warranty expires?

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Major breakthroughs in batteries are being made, just the other day I heard of a Silicone type technology, still in early development, but is expected to increase battery capacity by around 50%. Great for the future, but as per my observations, terrible for current owners of EV's and their already bad deprecation.
But bless those current owners for making it worthwhile for the companies to invest in bettering batteries.

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Originally Posted by Draigflag View Post
I'd just like to add, although charging cars will one day be just as convenient as filling up with fuel, at the moment it's still pretty impractical for a lot of people. In the UK about 50% of the population or 30,000,000 of us, live in houses 100 years old or older. Cars weren't that popular then, so most of these properties don't have driveways, garages or even parking spaces making charging from home almost impossible for a lot of people.
That's an issue for the UK, and likely most of Europe. In the US, something like 40% of households could make use the of the a short range BEV available today. They have garages or private parking, and multiple cars in the household. So having one BEV for a commute isn't a burden.

And if that many households had a BEV, it would have a big impact on reducing emissions. We don't need BEV to replace all the ICE cars. Just a part, and get some of those ICE replaced by a plug in hybrid.

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Although the small range may be enough for most people for the majority of thier journies, owning an electric car requires alot of thinking, everytime you get in the car you will be thinking how much charge do I have, where's my next nearest charge point, are the leads in the car, will I have enough to get here, what if someone is charging at that point, where's the next nearest one etc. That kind of makes it inconvenient, and an extra worry to the working day that people don't want.
Most people likely overestimate exactly how far they drive in a regular day. The current bunch of sub 100 mile BEVs might require planning when a person has an errand outside their regular travels, but we will see 200 miles BEVs soon. Those should require planning only for long trips.

If 200 miles isn't enough for a regular day, that person should consider a PHEV or hybrid instead, perhaps a diesel.

Many look at their individual situation, see that a BEV won't work, and declare BEVs won't work for anybody. It simply isn't true.

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Finding convenient time can be an issue, although most people will be charging overnight. Here's a quick comparison for you. It will take me 7 minutes to fill my car. Driving carefully, it will last 800 miles. An electric car takes 8 hours charging to do about 80 miles. A quick bit of maths tells me that an electric car needs roughly 4800 minutes V's my 7 minutes to do the same miles, time wise that 68000% more to get the same result!

I know theres a lot more to consider besides time, but hey its fun to compare.
Even among the time issue there is more to consider. For those 7 minutes of filling your ICE car, you stuck in that spot, waiting for the tank to fill. You might be able to check texts and such, but you might have to deal with the weather.

The weather might have to be dealt with in charging a BEV without a garage, but it you would have to deal with it to get into your house. But once plugged in, you can walk away from the car. In some jurisdictions that is illegal to do with an ICE. For those 8 hours, you can being watching TV, eating dinner, sleeping, or having a snog.

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Originally Posted by Redneckrich View Post
I don't know about conventional cars with fossil fuel engines being banned in cities, I know in the US it's not going to happen, for a long time. But here is an article proving my point, if you need some more, I can easily pull up more articles
Teslaís Electric Cars Arenít as Green as You Might Think | WIRED

Note if they do become banned, then you might as well ride a pedal bike
These aren't lead acid batteries, so there isn't acid to worry about. The NiMH ones might actually be alkaline, and before the nickel mine is brought up, a tiny fraction of it's output goes to batteries. The vast majority goes to stainless steel that we use in just about everything.

The big traction packs in cars are valuable as scrap. Before they are scrapped, batteries without enough capacity for a car use are still good for use in cell towers and such for back up power. Then the size difference means a 12 volt starter battery is more likely to be improperably disposed of than one of these traction packs.

That article is a little skewed, or I should say its title is. Take, "In fact, manufacturing an electric vehicle generates more carbon emissions than building a conventional car, mostly because of its battery, the Union of Concerned Scientists has found." If the link is followed back to the UCS article, "We found that battery electric cars generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for." is what you will find in the introduction.

Yes, more energy goes into making an electric car, but it uses far less while in use than an ICE one.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:10 AM   #23
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There are lots of benefits to electric cars, there are lots of downsides too, the same for any car regardless of how/where it's made and the fuel it uses. At the end of the day, most people only care about the end product, we have all become a bit naive and "hungry" for the latest tech, most of us give very little regard as to how that product was produced and how it got here. When we buy a smartphone, we don't consider the children working in mines in third world countries, a lot of whom die young from being crushed. We don't think much about the poor Asian workers who manufacture iphones, forced to work 19 hours a day without a break, most of which fall asleep on the production line. 17 iPhone manufacturing employees have committed suicide due to poor working conditions and being overworked etc, no-body cares, we still want tomorrows tech yesterday don't we? Who knows the true cost of creating an electric car? Who cares? Probably just those who cant afford one yet

You'd be surprised just how many places are going "car free" over here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_car-free_places
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:55 PM   #24
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I was suprised to see the MPGe figure for the electric cars posted as around 100-130. Is that saying the cost of charging equates to that amount of fuel?
If so, i had always supposed electric cars to work out more like several hundred mpg equivalent.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:13 AM   #25
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I'm not sure if that's equivalent cost or equivalent per Kilojoule of fuel?! It apparently costs about £2 for a full charge on a leaf that will do about 80 miles.
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:51 AM   #26
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This is the Wikipedia article on MPGe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_...ine_equivalent
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:58 AM   #27
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So around 2.5 pence per mile, equivalent to closer to 200 mpg in cost? I realise I've replied to the wrong thread, the MPGe figures were in that list of 10 electric cars!
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Old 07-06-2016, 05:08 AM   #28
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Nice link Charlie - a lot to take in on a lunchtime, but comforting to see that my Prius is no more expensive to run than a pure electric vehicle (according to the table) - and I can get nearly 600 miles on each 5 minute "charge"!
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Old 07-06-2016, 05:50 AM   #29
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Yes, MPGe is the measure of efficiency based on energy content compared to gasoline.

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Originally Posted by benlovesgoddess View Post
Nice link Charlie - a lot to take in on a lunchtime, but comforting to see that my Prius is no more expensive to run than a pure electric vehicle (according to the table) - and I can get nearly 600 miles on each 5 minute "charge"!
Your Prius is going to emit more CO2 per mile over time as we have to switch to oil that needs more energy to get and refine. If your grid is installing renewables, a plug in will emit less over time.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:01 AM   #30
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We have a lot of wind farms in Yorkshire - at least 3 big sites within 10 miles, including off shore, and plenty more as you travel.
I would prefer a plug in - but probably won't be able to afford to upgrade to a Prime when they come out, as it is the wifes turn for the next new car.
She wants a 4x4 SUV (Which she thought stood for "Suburban Urban Vehicle!), so I am trying my hardest to convince her a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is what she really wants...!
She can't stand the wishy washy pale blue they seem to favour, but spotting a black example she liked it, thought it looked completely different.
However, she also likes the idea of a new kitchen, and there is nothing wrong with, and plenty of years left in our diesel Honda CR-V.
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