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Old 09-08-2009, 08:42 AM   #1
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Any Jeep Owners on here with any MPG success stories??

I have a 95 jeep cherokee 2 door XJ auto 4x4 i6 4.0

I have done the following, any ideas for more FE or mpg success stories that would help me.

-Stan Meyer Replica HHO Hydrogen Cell all 316 stainless steel, puts out almost 2.0LPM, running at 10amps 150 degrees, b&m cooler too.
-Map and 02 enhancer to lean the jeep out since adding hho.
-Transmission cooler so Trans runs as cool as possible
-Transmission kick down cable as tight as possible so shifts are as firm as possible no lagging
-PCV enhancer to catch oil blow by from valve cover to intake.
-battery voltage stabilizer, supposively helps keep everything at a stable voltage
-Fuel Magnet supposively helps
-3.0? warm air intake next to header cone air filter best mpg is warm air
-Removed clutch fan for electric fan less moving parts and it is adj and kicks on at 205, and thermostat is 195 highest possible.
-6 new Bosch fuel efficient spray injectors, no more pencil spray old stock junk ones that prob leak too.
-Throttle body spacer with cyclone lines for better combustion and mpg
-Timing advanced as far as possible for better mpg
-Block heater so motor warms up faster to operating temp and into closed loop
-2000 jeep intake manifold that flows better and 15hp increase
-Tire pressures are all at 55PSI
-Run in neutral on hills and turn off if it?s a long enough hill, same thing at long lights it?s turned off.
-Serp belt is as loose as possible so spins as free as possible
-removed a/c and all that weight, and re-routed alternator in a/c's old spot so no more idler, fan or a/c pulley. smaller belt and less things to run around.
-Removed hitch, front driveshaft, spare tire and holder, rear seats, seatbelts, rear carpet, roof rack, and any other odds and ends that add extra weight.
-then rhino lined floors so its like a truck bed on the inside.
-All fluids in the jeep are the lightest weight possible diffs 75w80, tranny, engine oil 0w20, transfer case and all synthetic amsoil best.
-e3 plugs gapped as large as possible
-all high output wires, cap, rotor and coil from accell 8.5 super conductor for best possible spark
-high flow pacesetter header back exhaust 2.5 inch no kinks or sharp bends, high flow magnaflow cat too.
-run acetone, xylene, and 2cycle oil in gas at each fill up
-run z max every 5,000 miles in all fluids.
-all new sensors map, tps, iat, iac, map, 02 sensor so they are all working best as possible.


Did i miss anything or can i do anything else i drive 90% city and 10% highway.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:42 AM   #2
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Have you logged the effect of all those things on your fuel economy? Your gaslog here just has two entries from last year.

There are a few other Jeep drivers here who may be able to tell you what works for them.

Some thoughts on your extensive list...

Stuff that probably doesn't help:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95CHERJUST View Post
-Stan Meyer Replica HHO Hydrogen Cell all 316 stainless steel, puts out almost 2.0LPM, running at 10amps 150 degrees, b&m cooler too.
-battery voltage stabilizer, supposively helps keep everything at a stable voltage
-Fuel Magnet supposively helps
-Throttle body spacer with cyclone lines for better combustion and mpg
-e3 plugs gapped as large as possible
-all high output wires, cap, rotor and coil from accell 8.5 super conductor for best possible spark
-high flow pacesetter header back exhaust 2.5 inch no kinks or sharp bends, high flow magnaflow cat too.
-run acetone, xylene, and 2cycle oil in gas at each fill up
-run z max every 5,000 miles in all fluids.
Your voltage stabilizer won't help fuel economy, though if your built-in voltage regulator is failing then I suppose it might do the same job. Your ignition stuff will not likely help unless it replaced failing components. HHO, magnet, spacer, and cyclone are almost certainly not helping, although HHO may not entirely be proven ineffective. Exhaust and additives may help in certain conditions but probably not for you.

Stuff that probably does help:
Quote:
-Map and 02 enhancer to lean the jeep out since adding hho.
-PCV enhancer to catch oil blow by from valve cover to intake.
-3.0? warm air intake next to header cone air filter best mpg is warm air
-Removed clutch fan for electric fan less moving parts and it is adj and kicks on at 205, and thermostat is 195 highest possible.
-6 new Bosch fuel efficient spray injectors, no more pencil spray old stock junk ones that prob leak too.
-Block heater so motor warms up faster to operating temp and into closed loop
-2000 jeep intake manifold that flows better and 15hp increase
-Tire pressures are all at 55PSI
-Run in neutral on hills
same thing at long lights it?s turned off.
-removed a/c and all that weight, and re-routed alternator in a/c's old spot so no more idler, fan or a/c pulley. smaller belt and less things to run around.
-Removed hitch, front driveshaft, spare tire and holder, rear seats, seatbelts, rear carpet, roof rack, and any other odds and ends that add extra weight.
-All fluids in the jeep are the lightest weight possible diffs 75w80, tranny, engine oil 0w20, transfer case and all synthetic amsoil best.
-all new sensors map, tps, iat, iac, map, 02 sensor so they are all working best as possible.
Good job on that stuff, I bet those things have truly helped.

Stuff that's a good idea though it doesn't help with FE:
Quote:
-Transmission cooler so Trans runs as cool as possible
-then rhino lined floors so its like a truck bed on the inside.
Good stuff, but it's not saving any gas.

This one is opposite what you should do:
Quote:
-Transmission kick down cable as tight as possible so shifts are as firm as possible no lagging
Firm shifts are good but the kickdown cable won't affect shift firmness; that's dependent mainly on line pressure. Anyway, in most vehicles you want to avoid it downshifting quickly; instead, you want to open the throttle more and let it work harder in the current gear.

Damaging ideas:
Quote:
and turn off if it?s a long enough hill,
-Serp belt is as loose as possible so spins as free as possible
Your automatic transmission is probably like 90% of other automatic transmissions, in that its oil pump won't run while the engine is not running; if so, engine-off coasting can damage your transmission.

I can't imagine a loose slipping serpentine belt will save any measureable amount of fuel, but I can certainly imagine it wearing out and breaking prematurely.
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:42 PM   #3
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Thanks for the reply:

I started out at 12mpg city and i am up to 21mpg in the summer city driving.

The HHo i think if i had a newer car that was obd2 it would work better becuase the map enhancer can only lean the one 02 sensor so far. Plus newer cars can work better on hydrogen and see that extra fuel is being added. Hydrogen did bump the mpg up like 3 mpg on city but i need to do more testing to make it more efficent but i've seen where it does work very very well.

i was yanked by the gimmics for the fuel magnets and the voltage stabilizer they may work but you probaly need like millions of them in line. i paid 10.00 for both of them in total so no real loss.

thorttle body spacer is a give and take, some jeep guys on the forums have seen increases with it

e3 plugs where dyno tested on horsepower tv speed channel and they tried 5 sets of plugs and e3 lowered emissions and did give a .0000 something in better efficency. its small but does work

mpg is defintely helped by better spark for a more efficent burn, plus larger the gap plug the better the burn for fe. Plus super conductor wires 8.5 and high output coil is better too your wrong on that one.

high flow header, exhuast and cat helps the jeep breath better and did help my mpg some, plus no more bends or kinks in the pipes. the downpipe on my old header went from 2.5 to 1 inch from factory.

Zmax and engine restore helps a lot on older cars like mine with 190,000 miles on drivetrain. once again proven from years of results. better compression better mpg.

acetone, zylene and 2cycle snythetic mixed to a full tank i've watched a great 2 mpg increase when i use that consistently.

That rhino lining helps becuase my carpet weighed some much it wasnt even funny, so saved weight for FE

The kickdown cable on my jeep if i tighten it up it increases the line pressure and jeep shifts harder. it doesnt downshift more up and down i can tell you that first hand since i play with it all the time.

If your serp belt it too tight it will make the engine work harder to spin it and wear things out more.

Plus the jeep in neutral on hills wont hurt it, its just free wheeling what do cars do when they are being towed? they arent running while they are being towed right? Plus if i do it, its not for long.

Think of all this in a larger scale and larger picture. Its all small but helps becuase how can i go from 12 to 21?
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Old 09-08-2009, 04:21 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95CHERJUST View Post
Plus the jeep in neutral on hills wont hurt it, its just free wheeling what do cars do when they are being towed? they arent running while they are being towed right? Plus if i do it, its not for long.
Most vehicles cannot be towed with their drive wheels down. 4x4s are supposed to go on a flatbed, although I'm pretty sure it wouldn't hurt anything if you put the transfer case in neutral. 2wd vehicles get the end with the drive wheels lifted and the other end is on the ground.

Neutral with the engine on is fine, the engine is still running the transmission pump. With the engine off you're risking your transmission, as it doesn't get the lubrication and cooling provided by circulating the transmission oil. There are a few automatics that are ok for engine-off coasting; those have their pump driven by the output shaft.

Edit: With you knowing and willing to take the risk, I'd love to hear from you when you sell/junk the vehicle or the transmission fails, whichever comes first. I prefer real world experience to pre-existing knowledge / theory. I haven't heard from anyone who has done engine-off coasting with an automatic for the long term.

Quote:
Think of all this in a larger scale and larger picture. Its all small but helps becuase how can i go from 12 to 21?
My car is EPA rated 25 and I'm currently getting 40+, without any of those modifications. My pickup is rated 14 and I'm getting 19, again without those mods. The only thing from your list that I've done is increased tire inflation and neutral coasting (and engine-off coasting in my VW which has a manual transmission). I don't even drive very slow. Modifications aren't necessary to get results like yours.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:39 PM   #5
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Not sure if your E3 plugs have any platinum in or not, if they do they will fight with any H2 you get in there by preigniting it.

Which 2 stroke oil are you using? Has to be ashless TCW3 spec outboard oil or better, or it's just going to clag up your O2 sensor and catalytic convertor, and piston rings.....

Tubing the HHO in front of your TB isn't very efficient, it will only really suck at it when it's at WOT, and at closed throttle it's making a hydrogen gas bomb out of your intake.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:04 PM   #6
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Still waiting for info on an hho that works.
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:31 AM   #7
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By the way, it looks like you could have things that could conflict with each other...

The objective of combustion timing is to get the highest pressure at TDC, well, just a hair after TDC. This can be achieved by modifying spark timing, or modifying the burn rate/flame front speed of the fuel. A slow burning fuel you can light sooner to get the peak pressure at the right time (Spark advance) a fast burning fuel needs to be lit up later....

However, one is also faced with the emissions tuning of everything since the mid 70s which pulls advance between around 2000 and 3000 RPM to reduce NOx. By delaying the pressure peak until a little after TDC, the burn is cooler and makes less NOx. It's questionable actually whether this is necessary with E10 fuels which burn a little cooler. It's also questionable whether it is required with a fast burning fuel, which will ramp pressure quicker and leave less time for the head to heat soak, putting more energy into pressure than heat, thus overall the peak temperature might be just low enough not to make NOx.

Some additives may slow the burn (in general octane boosters) some may speed it, but it's not necessarily true that what increases the burn speed also promotes compression knock. In theory, hot, well mixed and atomised fuel should increase the flame front speed, therefore less advance is required. In theory, "hot" ignition systems and super spark plugs should light off the mixture more thoroughly allowing a quicker burn to completion, flame front speed is the same, but hopefully it's burning from the middle to the edges rather than kind of lighting it at one side and waiting for it to burn across. Therefore for the same flame front speed, combustion should be complete in less time. This should also require less advance. HHO is also theorised to increase flame front speed.

Acetone is a little odd in that it causes an apparent increase in octane rating due to raising the pre-ignition point of a fuel, thus it prevents knock, but due to being a high polarity solvent decreases the interstitial bonding, or surface tension of fuels into which it is diluted. Ethanol also has this effect. The difference between an ethanol fuel and a non-ethanol fuel in this regard is that ethanol has a lower heating value, and already does what acetone is meant to to do, therefore there is no further improvement from acetone. Whereas in a non-ethanol fuel, the acetone can have that effect without reducing the heating value of the fuel, because acetone has a fairly high heating value itself. The polar properties should allow better atomisation of a non-ethanol fuel, which should allow higher flame front speeds, but conversely the octane boosting properties by increasing pre-ignition temperature can mask and soften knock from detonation.

Anyway, the point of all this is to say that "The most base advance before it audibly misfires" might not necessarily be the most efficient, because combinations of additives and modifications may allow it not to misfire even though peak pressure is before TDC, or may mask and soften misfires. To some extent ECUs may be able to tune the advance dynamically and store an offset, but only if conditions are consistant, if you keep changing things from tank to tank it will never settle to the best it can do. It would be wise though to experiment with base advance under controlled conditions, to determine if you have it set for optimum power and economy, rather than going with the "It doesn't sound like it's misfiring when I push it this far" approach. You might find the optimum is a couple of degrees back from where you though it was.
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I remember The RoadWarrior..To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time..the world was powered by the black fuel & the desert sprouted great cities..Gone now, swept away..two mighty warrior tribes went to war & touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing..thundering machines sputtered & stopped..Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:35 AM   #8
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Oh actually, some motors can be substantially different in where exactly after TDC the peak pressure is most effective. This is dependant on rod to crank angle, stroke length and rod ratio. That is because a short stroke, short rod ratio, the piston can be displaced a relatively large amount relatively quickly, whereas on a long stroke, long rod ratio, the piston kind of hangs at the top of the cylinder for several degrees of rotation before it gets moving, so longer stroke motors may favor later peak BMEP than shorter stroke motors.
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I remember The RoadWarrior..To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time..the world was powered by the black fuel & the desert sprouted great cities..Gone now, swept away..two mighty warrior tribes went to war & touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing..thundering machines sputtered & stopped..Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:48 AM   #9
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I'll look into the engine off coasting if its going to burn up the tranny, i'll post some jeep forums.

Yea my jeep actually wont let you retard or advance the distributor timing. I grinded the clips off the distributor stops so that it can be moved. My computer is too old to automatically retard if timing is too high, i've already found that out.

I realise that there are many aspects go into spart and timing and fuel burn with using additives and certain octane and HHo.

I will have to stick with what i have then start to take things away and see what happens.

ROADWARRIOR Should i put the HHo in the intake manifold port on the manifold itself or somewhere else? No matter what it gets pulled in the motor at WOT right? Or should I find a vacuum line to attach it to?

E3 plugs are diamond fire technology i dont think they are platinum from what i see on their website and google searches.

http://www.e3sparkplugs.com/technology.htm
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:11 AM   #10
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See if you can find the venturi vacuum port, this should have vacuum at all times, because it's created by the venturi effect in the throttle body. Usually the evap system is connected to it. The evap system may have two points of connection though, one regular vacuum and one venturi vacuum. Regular vacuum will only pull it through at small throttle openings, venturi vacuum will pull it in across the throttle range.
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I remember The RoadWarrior..To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time..the world was powered by the black fuel & the desert sprouted great cities..Gone now, swept away..two mighty warrior tribes went to war & touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing..thundering machines sputtered & stopped..Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice
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