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Old 04-27-2007, 04:35 PM   #1
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CRYO Freezing your Engine for power and efficiency

I dont know if cryo freezing has been discussed here before but does any one have any experience or info on this subject. This caught my eye when i read an old article about a guy who cryogenicly froze his civic hybrid engine and said he can get close to 120 MPG. Supposedly its so posed to make the metal, and there for engine, last 2-4 times as long as normal. Cryo freezing is common for performance brake rotors and there are numerous businesses that perform this service.
http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp...3&nav=6uy5aHLq
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Old 04-27-2007, 07:09 PM   #2
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Funny.... The composites mentor/expert we're working with (for building an HPV) showed us a kevlar chest plate he made.... And then a friend of his did some sort of similar cryo process to it. He wasn't exactly sure what was done (other than cold) - but I think he did mention something about pressure (or lack of it). Perhaps like a reverse autoclave?

Before the process they jabbed it with a knife -- then repeated afterwards... the second cut was a lot shallower... Kinda cool - and that wasn't even kevlar29 (military stuff for bullet proofing).

Anyone have information about this guy's process?

EDIT:

Found on his website under a link to that article:
Quote:
You can double your mileage too, if you drive at a steady speed (45 mph) on a warm day on a level road.
Actually this car averages 60 mpg and consumes 5 gallons per month.
http://www.greatrazors.com/index.asp...ATS&Category=6
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Old 04-27-2007, 07:46 PM   #3
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Cryo treating engine parts works to reduce wear and strengthen the crystalline carbon structure within steel. Supposedly, it also realigns molecular bonds (I don't understand how).

In addition to freezing, heating can be included in the process. The part's temperature is gradually cycled from -360* F to +360*F several times.

I can definitely see how this could potentially increase mpg as friction is reduced and parts stay within their tolerance ranges better.

The process is fairly inexpensive and is usually done on a batch of parts rather than just a single part at a time.
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Old 04-27-2007, 09:20 PM   #4
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Agreed. The bulk of engine inefficiency comes from the combustion process itself. There is no treatment you can do to the materials used that improve that process in any significant way.

Longevity might be an issue worth attention, but the efficiency claims sound like total BS to me.
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Old 04-27-2007, 09:54 PM   #5
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The majority of an engine's friction is from oil lubricated bearings where there is (hopefully) little or no metal to metal contact, so I don't see how this would reduce internal friction.
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Old 04-27-2007, 10:47 PM   #6
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wow, no one seems to have much faith in this, but im sure it would have a noticeable effect on engine response and MPG, but not necessarily double the MPG.
As for THECLENCHER there are a whole lot of things that OEMs COULD do to boost MPG, like lighter engine components, but im sure they wouldent want to spend the extra time and money. plus many others have comented that OEMs would not want to produce parts that can last 2-6 times longer.

I think that having your car engine cryo frozen would be a great experiment to messure what kind of effect this would actually have on power and efficiency. Please some one with the time and money volunteer to have their engine frozen for the good of science. From all of the forums and sites ive visited it should be worth your wild.
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Old 04-27-2007, 10:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theclencher View Post
3. Why would Hutchison claim 120 mpg with no other mods?
It sounds like the news reporter took an anecdotal bit of information and used it for shock factor... He says on his website that he averages 60mpg, which is reasonable for his car

Quote:
Supposedly, it also realigns molecular bonds (I don't understand how).
Matt, it's just like quenching... In fact, it is exactly quenching. Pretty much all processed steels are metastable, that is - they are slowly transforming from martensite (sp?). Martensite is VERY hard - and very strong... but as is with most materials, the cost of hard and strong is a brittle steel (toughness). So.... by quenching steel that contains a lot of austenite (sp?), you get a phase transformation (almost instantly)...

Here's said phase diagram for Fe-C


Okay, so where's martensite? Well - remember how I said it was metastable? The phase diagram only shows stable forms of Fe-C steel. Martensite is formed from rapidly cooling - so the process is formed by energy change. This is why annealing, quenching, heat treating etc. work -- by changing the % of martensite v. other steel phases. Ancient blacksmiths may not have known why it worked -- but they sure did figure it out

The big question I have is.... What does this do to Al?


As for why it's not done everywhere? That toughness factor... Having ductile materials can be quite beneficial... For instance, I broke (another) bike chain tool today... the damn thing sheared right off - it was made from cast Al. Obviously brittle because it failed VIA fracture (at a corner no less - high stress concentration). Sorry for the whole materials science lecture there (I hope I got everything right )

------
But the points about journal bearings etc. are very good.... I wonder how this would reduce friction. Perhaps it reduces component deflection? I'm going to shoot this guy an eMail and see if he'll say anything
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Old 04-27-2007, 11:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theclencher View Post
All I found on his site was razor blades.
http://www.greatrazors.com/index.asp...ATS&Category=6

4th link (caption)
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Old 04-28-2007, 06:44 AM   #9
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Snip

------
But the points about journal bearings etc. are very good.... I wonder how this would reduce friction. Perhaps it reduces component deflection? I'm going to shoot this guy an eMail and see if he'll say anything
It might be beneficial to rings and cylinders because they generate a lot of the friction. They do not have a continuous oil film. At least that is what I have read. This was measured as electrical resistance between the ring and cylinder in an experimental set up.

Even so total friction might be a 20% loss and we have all seen friction reducing products that are supposed to be a 50% gain. The math never seems to work for me. We can take the 20% loss and say well that is of rated power and the engine is operating at less than rated power so the friction is a higher percentage.

I guess I will need to wait for the experiment but I wont be doing it.

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Old 04-28-2007, 07:10 AM   #10
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With respect to rings and cylinders, there's good reason that cylinders are honed, meaning patterned with cross-hatching, and not polished. That reason is to trap lubricant and air in a uniform manner between the ring and cylinder interface as the piston moves. So metal to metal contact is neither intended nor desired - and in a well built engine, virtually nil. Those little rings would not last long if the reverse were true.
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