FE, "friction modifiers", and additives. - Page 3 - Fuelly Forums

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Old 09-03-2006, 03:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Hart
"Work in"? Isn't this what the snake oil folks have been saying? "Soaks in"? Works in"? I did not realize the metals involved in your engine were porous!
I'm sorry if my phrasing wasn't technical enough for you. What phrasing would you have liked?

By "works in", I was talking about the process of getting the additive where it needs to be in the engine, vs the initial condition of the additive just sitting in the oil pan (along with the oil you added it to). For example, Moly will plate itself to the surface of metal, in the presence of heat and pressure. Both of these forces are present in an engine (and as long as the Moly is suspended in the oil, it will eventually get to the moving parts with those forces present), but the process takes a little time to complete (i.e. it takes a while to "work in").

BTW: You WANT the Moly to plate to the moving engine parts, as Moly (when it does plate to the metal) will be a much smoother/slick surface than most existing engine surfaces. Hence the lower friction!

And FWIW the surface of most engine metals is (on a microscopic level) very rough/porous. Which is why coating/plating the surface with something (such as Moly) that "fills in the gaps" can be "a good thing"...

NOTE: Teflon based car additives have also claimed this plating effect. However, in the case of Teflon, the plating process requires more heat than a car engine usually produces (so dumping Teflon into your engine, is likely to not help much, as it won't go where it's needed). And (worse yet) while the heat in a car engine isn't enough to cause Teflon to "plate" to the parts, it is enough to cause small Teflon particles to grow many times their original size (thereby making it very likely that many initially small Teflon particles will grow to a size large enough to cause engine problems due to their size). Which is why many people say Teflon is usually "a bad thing" in an engine. However, Moly has neither the problem with requiring too high of a heat (the heat/pressure in an engine is fine for causing the plating effect with Moly), nor does it have problems with "growing" (and thereby plugging up oil filters, or worse) when heated. So (unlike Teflon) Moly (in moderation) can be "a good thing" in an engine...

BTW: For those who don't know, Moly (a metal) is a "solid lubricant" (a lube that you use in its solid, not liquid, state). It's not overly cheap, but it is very effective (being very slick, having a tendency to "plate" to metal surfaces, and handling extreme pressure without problems). Teflon (aka PTFE, a plastic) is also a highly slick solid lubricant (and I think is noticeably cheaper than Moly). However, the problems with using Teflon as an oil additive are well documented. While Teflon (aka PTFE) might have some use as a plating on manufactured car parts (where you can effectively do what is needed to bond the Teflon to the part when making it), it has no place as an oil additive. OTOH Moly (when properly suspended in the oil) can effectively do it's work (as a solid lube with plating tendencies), without the (well documented) down-sides of Teflon.
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:46 AM   #22
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Well...apparently Tuffoil and Synlube both use moly and teflon?

On BITOG they cring when anyone adds additives to finely tuned motor oils....but it's possible that loading an engine or trans/diffs with a moly/teflon combination additve might work...did for me at one time.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:03 AM   #23
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It's the size of the particles that make the difference as well as what they are suspended in. When I emptied the containers of the Synlube they pretty much were clean at the bottom. I also tried a little on a cheep 12 volt air compressor - it made a hugh difference after it worked in a little - draws almost half the no load current. The Slick50 gear lube I had sitting around for about 20 years had a lot of white PTFE at the bottom that I had to mix back in with an ultrasonic cleaner. Adding the Slick50 to the tranny oil added about 5mpg to my test loop run - guess the original gear lube in the xB needed some more slipperyness.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugyNA
Well...apparently Tuffoil and Synlube both use moly and teflon?
Could be. However, I still am skeptical of Teflon in a car engine (due to the well documented problems, including the fact that Teflon grows in size when heated).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugyNA
On BITOG they cring when anyone adds additives to finely tuned motor oils...
Yes and no. Some BITOG members seem to cringe at adding any additive to a good oil. However, there seems to be a large number of BITOG members that think it can be a good thing, if (and only if) the additive has a clear cut benefit (that is at least partially understood), and you don't over do it.

In fact, it was the glowing BITOG testimonials of using VSOT (Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment) in moderation, that got me started with the stuff. But in the case of VSOT (which Moly is one ingredient in), BITOG members have analyzed the stuff (to see what is in it), and they were therefore able to figure out what it does and why. As a result, they had a pretty good idea when it might be useful, and when it wouldn't help (and even when it would likely be harmful). And they also had reports as to how it behaved in real engines (when various members tried it) so they were much more comfortable with using the stuff in a "well tuned oil" that still was weak in areas VSOT helped in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugyNA
.but it's possible that loading an engine or trans/diffs with a moly/teflon combination additve might work...did for me at one time.
I'm glad it worked for you. However, I'm still very skeptical of using Teflon as an oil additive, due to the well documented problems with it. And there really isn't much evidence (at least not much I'm aware of) that a Moly/Teflon mix is any more effective then just using more Moly as an additive (and it is known that Moly makes a much safer additive, for the insides of a car engine, then Teflon does).

OTOH even Moly can cause problems (in an engine) when abused. For example, if the additive maker makes the Moly partials too big, they can cause scratches. And if not properly suspended in the oil, then it will just precipitate out at the bottom of your oil pan (which doesn't do much harm, but also doesn't do you much good either). And you also need to be sure to add more acid neutralizers to the oil (VSOT has both Moly and increased acid neutralizers in it) when you use Moly, as Moly will turn to acid as it wears away (the wearing away of the Moly will protect moving metal parts, but acid is an undesirable by-product of the process). As a result, badly formed Moly additives can cause problems, even though Moly is generally helpful up to a point.

BTW: Many premium oils (including synthetics) already add some Moly to them. For example Mobil-1 has been analyzed (by BITOG members) to contain aprox 90 parts per million Moly ( http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...;f=11;t=000310 ). And some oils have much more (for example, Redline brand synthetics seem to have over 600ppm). So if you already use such a "well balanced" oil, what you are doing with the additive is just increasing the levels a bit (essentially just "boosting the additive pack" of the oil a bit). While I would never use VSOT with a Redline oil (as IMHO the Moly is already pretty much "maxed out" as to safe levels in a Redline Synthetic), I do use it with my Mobil-1 full synthetic oil (which has much lower levels of additives initially, and even with the VSOT added still has lower Moly levels than Redline oils have by themselves).

NOTE: I know this tread has drifted to just a discussion of Moly and Teflon. But the thing is, Moly isn't the only thing that could be useful (in moderation) in an engine oil (nor is it the only useful active ingredient in VSOT). The point I was trying to make when we first started this thread, is that we shouldn't just blindly assume that all additive are junk (even though many additive are), because an "additive" is little more than some concentrated something (what the something is, varies with the additive). And if the oil (or gas/fuel, for that matter) is a little lacking in that something (or blend of somethings that the additive has in it), than if you are careful, you can usefully improve things by using the additive. But that assumes you know what the additive does, the thing it does is actually useful (and doesn't have undesirable side-effects you are trying to avoid), and you don't overdo it.

A medicine metaphor comes to mind, when I think of oil/gas additives. Many medicines can cause real problems when taken in too high a quantity (over dose), the wrong medicine is taken (no benefit, but you still get the side-effects), or the wrong combination is taken (thereby having the medicines "fight", potentially in a very toxic way). But carefully used (with these factors taken into account), medicines can do amazing things. In a similar way, how much an oil/gas additive helps/hurts will depend upon the same factors: i.e. Is the stuff in the additive, the right stuff for the job? Is the dosage correct, or are we increasing things to where side-effects get too bad (over dose)? And for that matter, will the stuff in the additive fight useful stuff already in the oil/gas (or in other oil/gas additives you also use)?
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theclencher
+5 MPG!!!

What did they have in there stock- valve grinding compound?
Apparently enough stickyness to make the syncros work well but took a lot of power to turn it. I heard a lot of xB owners were changing the tranny oil and getting much better performance.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:21 AM   #26
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Hey where did you learn about metalergy? Alloys are porus and just about everything in an engine is an alloy. Unless they are really polished to a mirror finish they have a roughness to the surface which makes the oil film stick to it. Impreglon - a company that heats the metal to about 700 degrees in a tefllon gas chamber gets the pores to absorb the PTFE into the metal tens of thousands of an inch deep. The end result is some very slippery metal parts like a wrist pin that you can't hold between your fingers without it slipping out of them. Teflon oil treatments rely on burnishing the PTFE into the metal and Synlube does the same with Moly in their lube.
"Where did you learn about metalergy?" Well, I learned in Metallurgy 301 & 302 at N.C. State University while I was a student there! And, I learned how to spell the word much earlier than that! LOL!
"Alloys are porus"? You mean "porous"? Can you give just one example? I'm not talking about a sintered material, either! The parent stock of a sintered metal is a little different than the sintered material's characteristics (like absorbing oil). Alloys I am familiar with are anything but "porous"!
And your comments about Teflon ( PTFE or peratetrafluoroethylene) and Moly (molybdenum disulfide)in Synlube sounds like you believe the labels you read at Kmart. Heating a Teflon chamber to 700 degrees? Dangerous! I would stick to reading cereal boxes...they're safer! -whitevette
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:24 AM   #27
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One of the things I really like about this forum is people tend to be friendly, even when they disagree. I've been around a few others where discussion has turned into personal attacks.

Please keep it civil, people.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG
One of the things I really like about this forum is people tend to be friendly, even when they disagree. I've been around a few others where discussion has turned into personal attacks.

Please keep it civil, people.
Agreed. Pointing out people's spelling errors is childish, mean, and will make the rest of us not take you seriously.

If people have a difficult time understanding the rules of this forum, please click the "Frequently Asked QUestions" tab on the top-right of your screen.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Hart
And your comments about Teflon ( PTFE or peratetrafluoroethylene) and Moly (molybdenum disulfide)in Synlube sounds like you believe the labels you read at Kmart. Heating a Teflon chamber to 700 degrees? Dangerous! I would stick to reading cereal boxes...they're safer! -whitevette
Sorry for the typos but I am in pain for the past few weeks with a mild infection makes it hard to concentrate at my age. Ok so the mileage in my BMW R100S increased from 40mph to 60mpg because I changed the bearings and not from getting the tranny and rear end teflon impregnated. And I got 48.3mpg driving home last night in my 2006 Scion xB because I have excellent coasting skills and not from the Synlube in the engine, tranny and power steering and acetone in my gas tank.
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