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Old 07-24-2008, 06:11 AM   #31
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:21 AM   #32
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One final time. The complete post is below so no 'out of context' claims can be made. I have underlined the statements I wish to address.
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sd26,

to say that I am a skeptic is an understatement. I don't really think that the HHO in a car and running off of the alternator will work. I think that most of the people that are seeing gains are due to them leaning out their A/F ratio which is the concept of the HHO but I think that they are running too close for comfort (for me anyway) to the detonation point.

on the other hand, if you were to get the hydrogen from another source like an external bottle then maybe there is some merit to it. a friend of mine was suggesting that you actually produce the hydrogen at your house and compress it and use it like nitrous. well instead of a spray, have a bleeder that only flows a certain amount. after looking into the process of compressing hydrogen and the danger involved. that idea bit the dust.

the next best thing is what I had stated. running a deep cycle battery (that is in no way connected to the cars electrical system) to run the HHO generator and charge the battery at night. will it work? who knows but I think it would have a better chance than the HHO generators the way they are now.

I am talking like I am actually going to do this. these are simply the ramblings of someone with too much time on my hands. I would be more likely to put a belly pan on my car than play with HHO.

take it for what its worth, just thoughts of something that MIGHT work....maybe.....who knows
A skeptic is one who hasn't yet found enough facts to persuade or dissuade from an opinion. I was hoping to provide you with some facts to help you also realise that the H2 induction is not a practical means of saving gasoline.

Hydrogen from another source is similarly not likely to produce any overall energy use reductions. Yes the gasoline use in the car will be reduced by the addition or another energy source, but the energy used to produce that added source is more than the energy contained in that source. You may use less gasoline, by generating H2 off site rather than by alternator load, but not less total energy when both sources (the gasoline plus the grid power) are considered. It was this partial accounting that prompted my facetious comments about plug-in hybrids gas consumption and diesels not using any gasoline.

The deep cycle battery idea has this same issue of using more energy to make less energy, but so long as that energy source is trivialized or ignored, then the false appearance is one of better efficiency. To answer your question "will it work?" Yes, it will produce some amount of H2. No, it will not have good energy efficiency.

And finally "I am talking like I am actually going to do this." I interpreted as a statement that you are talking about these possibilities as if you are actually going to do this. When that was followed by "just thoughts of something that MIGHT work....maybe.....who knows" it became apparent to me that you have doubts and think that there is a chance it might be practical. I pointed out multiple reasons why I seriously doubt that the overall will be any savings, whether of energy use, lower emissions, or lower out-of-pocket costs.

I personally hope that you'll continue to persue these ideas, if only to remove the "what if" doubts you presently have.
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:36 AM   #33
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lug_nut

trying to be calm on this one.

honestly, I felt like your first post was an attack on my honesty and my integrety. (which may or may not be the case)

the whole skeptic thing is ABSOLUTELY TRUE if you read some of my other posts, you will see that I have been asking for gas logs from people with HHOs on their cars for a while and have received nothing. several of my friends have told me that I need to be more open minded about HHO and this was my attempt to do just that. I know the energy equation (that most try to discredit) that always comes out negatively. I was just having some thoughts to where the efficiencies may be better. I didn't do research on any of these as I plan to NEVER play with HHO.

the two ideas discussed were just random conversations that I have had with others like me that have done things to our cars to help FE that have nothing to do with HHO. they aren't considering it either by the way. just as a side note, a year ago, we were discusing the idea of taking a geo metro and putting a turbo charged V6 in it. back when gas was cheap (relatively) that didn't happen either

the last two things you have underlined are ironic. the first (of the last two) was meant as sarcasm and the last was to leave a glimmer of hope that just possibly some of this stuff might work with enough effort and know how.

another statement in that last bit says it all. I would be more likely to put a belly pan on my car than play with HHO.

side note: didn't mean to come back at you with my guns blazing but I did feel like you were questioning my integrety as a person an my honesty as far as my gas log, which is spot on accurate.

*edit* also, as a rule of thumb, I don't use quotes or those little smiley face things (emoticons) to give imphasis on what I am saying. maybe that is the reason my sarcasm came out differently than I planned. the quotes can be misinterpreted when taken out of context and thus the reason I don't use them. I have only done it once (which was earlier in this thread) and don't really plan to start using them for that same reason.
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Old 07-24-2008, 10:31 AM   #34
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Ok so here are my thoughts and a few points to clear things up that no one seems to be mentioning here.

First - the HHO gases are to enhance the gasoline combustion so you can release more of the gasoline energy - the HHO is not ment to be a replacement for the gasoline.

Second - If you could generate enough HHO from a separate battery then you may be able to get the engine to idle on HHO alone - fuel cut off maybe? Then you have a really easy layman Hybrid - running on a separate battery too, which you can recharge down hill braking or at home on the grid or whatever energy source you wish to use - plugin Hybrid!!

Third - I think an On Off switch on the gas pedal is the simplest way to control the HHO generator.

Fourth - If you run a separate battery and want to improve your gas mileage even more then power up the 12 volt system with the separate battery and a regulator so that you completely unload the alternator on the ICE from wasting gasoline. Grid power is much cheeper than gasoline generated power.
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:51 AM   #35
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A quart of HHO is only 12.5% hydrogen (fuel) and 87.5% oxygen. Assuming they recombine perfectly (which i seriously doubt) that is a minuscule amount of fuel, 2 ounces to a pint of liquid (by weight).

A gallon of HHO produces 1/8th gallon of fuel, the rest is an oxidizer.

Your fuel delivered by HHO generation is easily calculated from the water your system consumes. I once calculated it at 3 tenths of 1 percent in my VX, that runs an hour on a gallon of gasoline.

Even if your systen CONSUMED 1 gallon of water per hour, you would still be generating only a very samll portion of your fuel requirements.

Geezus, how long can we debate this?

Use a separate power source and measure the improvement, there has to be one.
Then use the cars charging system and see how much you loose.

Game set match, you have irrevocable proof.

regards
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:56 AM   #36
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The fact that anyone is trying to convince me to try it (HHO) is ludicrous. If you are willing to experiment with a system, I certainly am not stopping you. My car will do fine for 8 years as long as I don't do something stupid and mess it up.

There are a lot of smart people around here and I am sure I will see better evidence to support HHO injection in the future. The other side of me says, why risk your irreplaceable VX with 35k miles trying to extract a few more MPG.

The side that always wins is the one that screams---------DO NO HARM

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Old 07-24-2008, 12:32 PM   #37
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The fact that anyone is trying to convince me to try it (HHO) is ludicrous. If you are willing to experiment with a system, I certainly am not stopping you. My car will do fine for 8 years as long as I don't do something stupid and mess it up.

There are a lot of smart people around here and I am sure I will see better evidence to support HHO injection in the future. The other side of me says, why risk your irreplaceable VX with 35k miles trying to extract a few more MPG.

The side that always wins is the one that screams---------DO NO HARM

regards
gary
Here is a simple thought on the engine load/electrical load side of the debate. Take for example my Beast. I have already established that it gets the same fuel mileage whether or not I use the a/c because the a/c is such a small drag on the engine it makes an insignificant difference, unless I am stopped and stuck in traffic. I would imagine a 150 amp alternator under the loads I'm talking about surely is less of a drag than an a/c compressor.

Now lets stop and consider this in installing HHO on "The Beast" (I don't think I'm going to do it, but lets debate it anyway.)

The Beast has an upgraded electrical system. 150 amp alternator instead of the stock 120 amp (+30 amps), and it has a 950 CCA battery instead of the stock 600 CCA (+350 CCA) I always believe in overkill on electrical systems. They last longer with fewer problems (Plus its nice to be able to jump start anything). I'm thinking a 10-20 amp draw would create little, if any extra drag on the Beast's 5.7 liter V-8. The electrical system is sized to handle the extra load without being overtaxed.

In the case of this vehicle the extra load may not negatively effect FE, and the HHO generated may enhance mileage, if the computer doesn't try to richen the mixture to compensate for it.

Of course, I must say this again this is purely hypothetical. I too am skeptical, and I'm not going to go through the time and expense of building an HHO system unless we have a couple of people running HHO with some nice before and after gas logs that shows it works, and its worth the hasle.

-Jay
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:42 PM   #38
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another thing that makes me curious is that the people that are playing with HHO, usually haven't done the usual, easy mods. block off the grill, pump up the tires, scangauge, etc...

I would go with something tried and true before something that you have to wonder about.

Jay2,

I have also wondered if the fact that your truck has a horribly oversized engine would make a difference as far as load(the reason I say oversized is because it only takes around 25 hp to keep your speed a constant 60 mph on a flat). load caused by the alternator that is.

honestly, your engine is sized to get you down the road and to pull several tons as well (assuming because I don't know the specs of your specific truck).


RIDE,

the uck-oh factor of the HHO bothers me as well. first of all I wouldn't put one on my car. I was just sharing thoughts for the ones that are willing to try. second of all, I got a killer deal on my car (still not as good as yours) and I want to get as much out of this car as possible. I have seen turbo charged cars with too much boost run lean and essentially melt. running lean is not cool in my books.

I would rather sacrifice some MPG and keep my car running for years to come If I even am sacrificing MPG.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:03 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by BEEF View Post
another thing that makes me curious is that the people that are playing with HHO, usually haven't done the usual, easy mods. block off the grill, pump up the tires, scangauge, etc...

I would go with something tried and true before something that you have to wonder about.

Jay2,

I have also wondered if the fact that your truck has a horribly oversized engine would make a difference as far as load(the reason I say oversized is because it only takes around 25 hp to keep your speed a constant 60 mph on a flat). load caused by the alternator that is.

honestly, your engine is sized to get you down the road and to pull several tons as well (assuming because I don't know the specs of your specific truck).


RIDE,

the uck-oh factor of the HHO bothers me as well. first of all I wouldn't put one on my car. I was just sharing thoughts for the ones that are willing to try. second of all, I got a killer deal on my car (still not as good as yours) and I want to get as much out of this car as possible. I have seen turbo charged cars with too much boost run lean and essentially melt. running lean is not cool in my books.

I would rather sacrifice some MPG and keep my car running for years to come If I even am sacrificing MPG.
It is a 1/2 ton 5 passenger truck with a 350 V-8. According to the manual I can tow up to 6,500 pounds. I do have the factory towing package with the over sized radiator, external oil cooler, and tranny cooler. I don't know if this ups my rating or not. The manual does not mention the towing package. Anyway, the truck is quick. Maybe sometime I should to a 0-60 time, but that wastes gas...

Anyway, I think that the truck has torque to spare, and an electrical system that has a few amps to spare as well. The only question is would the amount of HHO produced make a difference running in an engine that large.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:10 PM   #40
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A long time ago i had a 67 Dodge Dart. I was going on vacation and did not have time to install an 8 track tape player (yes that long ago). I just stuck the tape deck, speakers, and another battery in the back seat!

It took a week to drain that battery.

A temp setup can be tried in several vehicles, and as I said before, grid power cost 1/4th what engine power costs.

Separate the variables and you have a much more scientific experiment.

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