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Old 11-22-2007, 01:42 AM   #11
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Has anyone ever thought of this:

- Drill and Tap holes in the Intake Manifold and Exhaust Manifold (perhaps 1/4" NPT)
- Install Swagelok-to-NPT adapters or stainless hose adapters
- Bend tube or run stainless hose between them

Perhaps you could have a valve in the middle to control the flow. Basically what you'd be doing is creating another EGR, with the intent of DIRECTLY re-capturing heat. I wonder if, when using enough flow to capture a heat benefit, the oxygen-lean exhaust would starve the engine too much...
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Old 11-22-2007, 01:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ryland View Post
up untill modern fuel injection, almost all cars ran a warm air intake that was kept at 100 degrees, pulling heat off the exaust, and monetering it with a bi-metal valve on a vaccum line, controling a vaccum motor, it's one of the simplest systems, useing wast heat.
Yes, I know. Even some of the early fuel injection still used a heat snorkel. My old '89 Chevy 4.3L had TBI and those still used one. It had a butterfly valve in the end of the air cleaner which had a heat sensistive valve. I believe it was just like a thermostat for the cooling system with a wax pellet that expanded upon getting heated to operate the valve since there were no vacuum and/or electrical connections to it.

Agreed with theclencher on trying to use an already existing resource of heat, that given off by the motor. Unfortunately the exhaust manifold on the ecotecs are on the firewall side of the engine and the air box is tucked into the passenger corner. There really isn't a lot of room to maneuver duct work along the front (timing cover) end of the motor. Later on when I get a chance I'll take another look at it and see what ideas I can craft up. Because of the exhaust location is the reason why I was looking to artificially generate heat with a different source.

I did play around with that heated O2 last night. I figure it would last longer than a glow plug since its designed to be heated the entire time the engine is running. I took a pair of plyers and pulled the shroud off the tip to expose the element. I hooked it up to a 12 volt 1 amp power supply and set a meat probe thermometer on it to see how hot it will get. I stopped after it reached 150F, not sure how much hotter it would get. Might get too hot, but splicing it into the heating circuit for the ones on the car was my thought and mounting it in the air box below the air filter. Obviously how much heat it gives off will be the major factor. IMO it will get hotter than what my 1 amp power supply will allow it when it is on a car's electrical system since it will have more amps available. Any thoughts?

I was looking at other heating sources, like the kind you plug into the cigarette lighter, which might be too big. Everything else I thought of runs on 120 and it would be counterproductive to use something that needs a power inverter.
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Old 11-22-2007, 06:32 AM   #13
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and what happens when that heating element decides to break off? You send it flying through your engine causing damage?

I can understand your desire to warm up the intake but what your talking about doing is using more fuel, by way of increased load on the alternator, to produce electricity to heat the intake. Lots of room for losses in that system. If I were you I'd be trying to find a way to increases the effientcy of the engine by recapturing what waste there is there already.

You say there isn't alot of room for duct working but remember it doesn't really matter how long your intake track is when dealing with a HAI. The intake track isn't the restriction since the airflow through the intake is tiny when your driving for FE. Your throttle plate should be mostly closed at cruise so the major restriction is at the throttle body.

You don't have to use dryer ducting to do this, you can goto any autoparts store or online shop and get preheater hose in varying diameters. I'm sure you could source one small enough to be able to route effectively in your bay.

Good luck!
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Old 11-22-2007, 06:39 AM   #14
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and what happens when that heating element decides to break off? You send it flying through your engine causing damage?

I can understand your desire to warm up the intake but what your talking about doing is using more fuel, by way of increased load on the alternator, to produce electricity to heat the intake. Lots of room for losses in that system. If I were you I'd be trying to find a way to increases the effientcy of the engine by recapturing what waste there is there already.


Good luck!
Break off and end up in the engine? Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I said I wanted to try a heat source in the air box, meaning before the air filter. Nothing is ending up in the engine, except warmer air hopefully.

I don't think pairing another heated O2 on the same circuit as the existing ones is going to increase the load by much anyway.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:37 AM   #15
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One might not increase the load by much but I doubt one would increase the temp of the air by much.

Please note I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to steer you in a direction that is proven and effective.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:45 AM   #16
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understandable. I don't feel like wasting time on things that are already proven not to work. thanks for that.

No, I wouldn't stick something into the intake that has the potential of winding up in places it shouldn't!

Reminds me of a story my dad told me that happened to him years ago. He was riding his motorcycle without an air cleaner and used to keep a shop rag under the seat. He was riding along when suddenly the bike got quiet. I'm sure you can guess what happened. Spent the better part of a weekend trying to remove it! Oops!
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:52 AM   #17
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Getting old school here. Anybody familiar with the old EFE system GM used to use on some carbbed engines? Early Fuel Evaporation was incorporated on the Camaros and not sure what else. There was a plate below the carb, looked like a TB spacer really, and had a heating element to heat the incoming a/f mix to aid cold weather driveability.
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:24 AM   #18
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Heres a way you could go about keeping some heat in the engine. Along with underbody panels and radiator blocks take a look at your wheel wells. If its anything like the insight there are some rather large holes where the cars suspension, steering arms, swaybars makes it way through the engine compartment to the wheels. I've made up some rubber panels (made out of tractor innertubes) and used heavy duty velcro (affixed with rubber cement) to close up those openings.

I monitor my intake air temp and coolant temps with a scangauge to make sure I don't get too hot.

sealing up the engine compartment to minimize heat losses will do wonders in keeping your coolant and intake air temps high.
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:17 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dunlop View Post
Has anyone ever thought of this:

- Drill and Tap holes in the Intake Manifold and Exhaust Manifold (perhaps 1/4" NPT)
- Install Swagelok-to-NPT adapters or stainless hose adapters
- Bend tube or run stainless hose between them

Perhaps you could have a valve in the middle to control the flow. Basically what you'd be doing is creating another EGR, with the intent of DIRECTLY re-capturing heat. I wonder if, when using enough flow to capture a heat benefit, the oxygen-lean exhaust would starve the engine too much...
As I've read, EGR feedback is finicky as is... At least, the control systems query a lot of sensors, none of which actually say if the EGR is getting the end goal - everything is inferred I think modern systems don't just open the valve, and rather slowly open so the driver doesn't notice the loss of power (requiring more throttle to compensate). You'd also want to limit EGR usage on a completely cold engine - my last car did that until the cold start enrichment cycle finished. I believe that's to prevent augmentation of anomalies (like a missfire on top of unstable conditions).

But don't let that stop anyone And easy easy proof of concept would be to use the secondary O2 sensor bung. The downstream O2 sensor won't change fuel maps, but disconnecting it will throw a code. Just hook up your hose from that bung to a vacuum port(s) at their connection to the manifold
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Old 11-22-2007, 01:45 PM   #20
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As I've read, EGR feedback is finicky as is... At least, the control systems query a lot of sensors, none of which actually say if the EGR is getting the end goal - everything is inferred I think modern systems don't just open the valve, and rather slowly open so the driver doesn't notice the loss of power (requiring more throttle to compensate). You'd also want to limit EGR usage on a completely cold engine - my last car did that until the cold start enrichment cycle finished. I believe that's to prevent augmentation of anomalies (like a missfire on top of unstable conditions).

But don't let that stop anyone And easy easy proof of concept would be to use the secondary O2 sensor bung. The downstream O2 sensor won't change fuel maps, but disconnecting it will throw a code. Just hook up your hose from that bung to a vacuum port(s) at their connection to the manifold
That would probably make the engine run as if the EGR were stuck wide open, that is not run at all. EGR flow is very controlled and very precise. Anyone who has had one sticking open will tell you what kind of issues it will cause. matter of fact, that was an old test on the open style ones was to push on the valve while the engine was idling and if it stalled you knew the egr was closing properly.
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