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Old 02-29-2008, 08:28 PM   #51
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[QUOTE=gto78;91750]I second the point that you need to modify the cars computer signal from the Oxygen sensor in order for the HHO generator to work. All the studies I've seen and read say that since the combustion process is more efficient (quite a few people are claiming ZERO emissions) that your oxygen sensor thinks the car is running too lean. It compensates by adding enough fuel to get a "normal" reading. As a result people gain nothing, sometimes get worse mileage by installing an HHO generator. That's the reason why people are installing the EIFE devices to change the oxygen sensor reading.

QUOTE]

What about just feeding hydrogen into the intake manifold would that still trigger the sensor somehow?
This calls for two tubes out the top of the electrolisis tank and a top to near bottom divider so that you don't mix the HH with the O ?
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:04 PM   #52
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I just bought the water4gas.com online books

Hi,
I'm a new member here, with a 2007 Prius. Gas just went to $3.29.9 here in Galesburg, IL.
Ozzie Freedom and the other guys that have developed their HHO system, have done a LOT of research, and have over 9,000 users, they claim. I don't doubt it, and they're going to get many more.
I see some of you guys talking about "plates". Take a look at water4gas.com,
and you'll see that plates are not the best way.
I bought a dozen wide-mouth Mason jars today, and will start gathering more parts. I'll try a two-cell setup, and try to find whether I even have a MAP, or whatever, in the Prius. Ozzie F. has other things to try with the "heart" of the system, which is the HHO electrolyzer. It CAN get complicated, but I'm going to
try a couple or 3 simple methods. Might build a simple MAP enhancer. There are even some gas additive (sworn not to be harmful to the car) mixes to try.
If you really want to get involved in this, you might do well by spending $97 on the two water4gas online books. Easy to read, well-illustrated.
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Old 03-10-2008, 07:06 PM   #53
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It would seem that surface area is what gives the most gas rather than a thin wire as water4gas suggests , perhaps I am wrong but do try it out and we'll be listening for your comments.
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Old 03-11-2008, 01:15 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gto78 View Post
I second the point that you need to modify the cars computer signal from the Oxygen sensor in order for the HHO generator to work. All the studies I've seen and read say that since the combustion process is more efficient (quite a few people are claiming ZERO emissions) that your oxygen sensor thinks the car is running too lean. It compensates by adding enough fuel to get a "normal" reading. As a result people gain nothing, sometimes get worse mileage by installing an HHO generator. That's the reason why people are installing the EIFE devices to change the oxygen sensor reading.

HHO devices (depending on who designed it) usually only use about 10 amps more or less. This is about the same energy used as turning on one headlight. I don't know about anyone else, but my mileage doesn't change when turning on my headlights...
I'm using a scangauge and if I turn on my headlights at 65mph my instant MPG goes down 2mpg.
But I third you on the EFIE scenario.
Bravo to those actively gathering results on here into these HHO systems!
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Old 03-11-2008, 04:45 AM   #55
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It would seem that surface area is what gives the most gas rather than a thin wire as water4gas suggests , perhaps I am wrong but do try it out and we'll be listening for your comments.
I think the all variables involved in the construction of different types of generators and electrolytes is a bit more complicated than most believe.

Think of a spark plug...does it have a lot of surface area?

Too many including myself, try to reinvent the wheel by designing their own generator.

Best bet is to build a known design according to their specs and construction details...right now I'd go with either the smackbooster or the water4gas cells...forget the closed cell tero design or bobboyce...too technical for the beginner.

Lot of bull and misleading (confusing?) info on the HHO forums? Too much emphasis on the perfect design...losing track of getting one made and installed and in use. And it isn't just a matter of throwing a lot of HHO at your engine...it should be part of a system.

Big issues are finding space and keeping the cells cool....which isn't talked about a lot.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:14 AM   #56
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I wholeheartedly agree. It would have been better for me if I had read less of what others are doing. This is part of what I found...

Efficiency seems best if the voltage is kept low, but not in every case. I have used 12 volts in bench tests with success. Many say the best voltage is between 1.5-2 volts, but yours may NOT work at 2 volts or below. This may vary with the type of electrolyte used, electrolyte strength, electrolyte purity, plate material or alloy, plate shape, spacing, water purity, temperature, and other factors.

Large plate size may not be the best answer. My plates are small; 1/2" x 5". If the electrolyte becomes discolored, it usually means the plates are being eaten away. A greater number of smaller cells may give the best electrode life and better gas production.


Operating temperature is very important. I got a simple temperature controller working last night and hope to have it installed soon.
You are welcome to follow along with testing here:
http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html



Bill
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Old 03-11-2008, 06:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n0rt0npr0 View Post
I'm using a scangauge and if I turn on my headlights at 65mph my instant MPG goes down 2mpg.
But I third you on the EFIE scenario.
Bravo to those actively gathering results on here into these HHO systems!
Hmm, since you put it that way now I have to see for myself...lol Tomorrow I'm pluggin in the Scangauge before driving to work and I'll set cruise. I'll let it stabilize at whatever mpg it is and do what you did- turn on or off my headlights. If my mileage makes a noticeable change then I'll have learned something for the day and have an excuse to go back home, and avoid work for the day.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:11 AM   #58
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Large plate size may not be the best answer. My plates are small; 1/2" x 5". If the electrolyte becomes discolored, it usually means the plates are being eaten away. A greater number of smaller cells may give the best electrode life and better gas production.


Operating temperature is very important.

Bill
* your testing is way ahead of mine

* water4gas uses 316L wire for the + with no erosion and using soda...one guy claims 2Xs the gas output under same amp/temp conditions when using soda vs NaOH in these cells

* might use battery warmers or coffee warmers to preheat the cells...could maintenance charge the car's battery overnight using a 15V wallwart? Unplug and drive.

* have a mechanical adjustable rad fan switch that switches down at around room temps at least ($19 at Autozone?)

* have you found a way to test for the quality of the gas vs temp? If some of the gas is water vapor due to overheating...not going to be as combustible? Where do you think the upper temp limit is for quality gas production?
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Old 03-12-2008, 07:19 AM   #59
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Hmm, since you put it that way now I have to see for myself...lol Tomorrow I'm pluggin in the Scangauge before driving to work and I'll set cruise. I'll let it stabilize at whatever mpg it is and do what you did- turn on or off my headlights. If my mileage makes a noticeable change then I'll have learned something for the day and have an excuse to go back home, and avoid work for the day.
You can see incremental load changes with better resolution at idle just by monitoring the LOD display. Going from all accessories and cooling fan off to everything on makes our Mazda5 LOD jump as much as 50% at idle.

Anyway, back to our thread, I am VERY interested to see where the results of this experiment go. Nice work flap!
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:13 PM   #60
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* water4gas uses 316L wire for the + with no erosion and using soda...one guy claims 2Xs the gas output under same amp/temp conditions when using soda vs NaOH in these cells

There is no such thing as running it on soda. It changes in a very short time to NaOH. The pH bears this out. Soda has a pH of 7. A few minutes of operation it changes to pH of 10.


* have a mechanical adjustable rad fan switch that switches down at around room temps at least ($19 at Autozone?)

I put one of those on my e-fan abut 6 years ago. I love it.

* have you found a way to test for the quality of the gas vs temp? If some of the gas is water vapor due to overheating...not going to be as combustible? Where do you think the upper temp limit is for quality gas production?

Is there some evidence that there is a quality problem? Be assured that any mix of H2 and O2 will burn. I have not experienced any water losses, but I am considering water injection. It may allow a tiny bit more ignition advance.

The upper temperature will be determined by the individual cell, its design, electrodes, electrolyte, and many other variables.

Bill
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