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Old 03-14-2008, 04:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by flapdoodle View Post
How did he get "steam" below 100 degrees C as he claims?
I'm thinking that it might be a combination of a high enough electrolyte temp (158F?) and the high current involved that might be causing this to happen, instead of HHO production.

You could tell you were making vapor or steam IF your electrolyte level started going down faster than was typical?

I'm wondering whether this process (if it happens) starts gradually where above a certain temp HHO production would start to drop and vapor output would start to increase.
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:43 PM   #72
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I'm thinking that it might be a combination of a high enough electrolyte temp (158F?) and the high current involved that might be causing this to happen, instead of HHO production.

You could tell you were making vapor or steam IF your electrolyte level started going down faster than was typical?

I'm wondering whether this process (if it happens) starts gradually where above a certain temp HHO production would start to drop and vapor output would start to increase.
The dielectric permittivity (dielectric constant. Distilled water has a constant of 81) decreases while the dielectric loss increases. (making even more heat). Measurement shows that the resistivity (inverse of resistance) decreases after hydrogen charging. This degradation can be explained as hydrogen forming hydroxy (OH-) bonds in the surface, which prevents the ions from switching. (Ions carry the hydrogen to one electrode, and oxygen to the other. In other words, a charged cloud, or plasma). Note that there will be an associated breakdown of electrolyte and the electrode surface.

Since water boils at 212 degrees, you will not see steam at the temperatures you quote. If you take a magnifying glass to the hydrogen production you will see minute droplets being ejected from the electrolyte surface. I installed mist shields on my cells to prevent the mist from being drawn up the supply tubes.

The temperature of 158F is almost meaningless since thermal runaway will vary with the cell design and operating conditions.

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Old 03-14-2008, 07:59 PM   #73
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The one way you could see steam is something called spot heating meaning that the temperature at the plates got to boiling probably from the gas bubbles reducing the contact surface of the plate and insulating it to just a small areas where the current though the water was concentrated and made the temperature rise enough there to boil some water off. The thing to do is to increase the conduction of the water so that it has less resistance and then all the heating problems will go away and you will be simply be splitting the water into 4H+O2 gases. This also reduces the required plate voltage to slightly over what is needed to split the molecules apart making it more efficient.
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:19 PM   #74
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The spot heating theory sounds fine and I did consider that. However, the claim is that steam is entering the engine. IF it made it out of the cell, I see no way it would survive as steam after going through the backflash bubbler and a lot of tubing.

Steam injection in conjunction with hydrogen is one thing that others are working on and in itself may not be bad.

Increasing the electrolyte makes the problem worse rather than better because the current goes up. You can easily try this yourself in a coffee cup with distilled water, baking soda and copper wire.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:56 PM   #75
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flapdoodle -

Have you heard anything about this gizmo? :

HydranOx
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php
Quote:
... It is the only hydrogen generator on the market that separates the hydrogen and the oxygen before they combine and it directs the hydrogen to your engine. The hydrogen gas is added to the air intake of your engine where it is then combusted with the gasoline or other fuels. ...
CarloSW2
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:39 PM   #76
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I saw it before but am not really familiar with it. I have a problem with the claim of "all that extra water coming out the exhaust". Any hydrogen I could ever hope to generate is negligible to the water that burning gasoline produces.. Something like 8 pounds per gallon.

It is a very nice looking unit though.
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:47 AM   #77
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The one way you could see steam is something called spot heating meaning that the temperature at the plates got to boiling probably from the gas bubbles reducing the contact surface of the plate and insulating it to just a small areas where the current though the water was concentrated and made the temperature rise enough there to boil some water off.
Sort of what I was trying to say. Doesn't matter whether this "steam" makes it to the engine as "steam"....just that it isn't HHO?

This might be why the more "advanced" closed series cells use crosshatched plates with no plate edges exposed to the electrolyte? Keeps these localized "hot spots" reduced and spreads the gas production out over a larger surface?

Also might relate to the idea of using sonics...pulsing...magnetics to make the bubbles detach earlier?
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:51 AM   #78
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Something related:


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/


In the *files section*...check out:

Bill_Lang_New_System.pdf


http://download1-cm.edgesuite.net/bl...udio/mpeg&cd=1
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Old 03-15-2008, 09:05 AM   #79
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Increasing the electrolyte should reduce the resistance heating of the liquid and yes it will increase the current if you try to maintain the same voltage but that is what is supposed to happen when the resistance goes down. As far as the Steam is concerned the gas will contain some moisture and bubbling it through more water should cool and condense any "steam" from leaving the cell. There may still be a fog or mist of very small water droplets in the gas which if passed through a few loops of tubing (clear) should separate out. Increasing the plate area should also help but ultrasonic release of the gas bubbles should not be needed in a moving vehicle since the road and engine vibrations should help knock them loose anyway.
Water from burnt gasoline is a function of how many hydrogen atoms are in the fuel that combine with the O2 from the air being taken in and yes it could be 8lbs per gallon since more of the weight is from the 2 Oxygen atoms combining with the lightest Hydrogen atom - you could even end up with more weight in water than you started with in gasoline if there are a lot of hydrogens atoms in the fuel. Oxygen atoms are about 16 times heavier than Hydrogen atoms and there are 2 of them from evey hydrogen atom in water. If there were 1 pound of hydrogen atoms in the gasoline you would end up with 33 pounds of water.
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Old 03-15-2008, 10:38 AM   #80
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Increasing the electrolyte should reduce the resistance heating of the liquid and yes it will increase the current if you try to maintain the same voltage but that is what is supposed to happen when the resistance goes down.
Yes, but that would make it a different generator then wouldn't it? The man's question involved limiting the temperature.

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Oxygen atoms are about 16 times heavier than Hydrogen atoms and there are 2 of them from evey hydrogen atom in water. If there were 1 pound of hydrogen atoms in the gasoline you would end up with 33 pounds of water.
I am using the same oxygen that was part of the molecule when it was water, so if I get 33 pounds out, I would have to but 33 pounds of water in (4.125 gallons). That will mean a lot of miles.

Have you actually built a generator?
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