BMW i3 / New 94ah Battery / SAME size & weight as old 60ah

[SteveMak]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

The CF structure is important in an EV to save weight, as the batteries are extremely heavy. It's why Tesla make 97% of their cars from aluminium, they have to save as much weight to make the car light and the range better.

I believe most car buyers don’t care how a manufacturer does what they need to do. They look at what they get for the dollar. BMW elected to use expensive carbon fiber (carbon fiber forms are all hand-built) to reduce weight. It’s one of the things that makes a car cost US$42,400 while offering a range of only about 100 miles (EPA).

No doubt carbon fiber delivers huge bang (light-weight, yet stronger than steel and dent-resistant), but it does this at a huge bucks price.

Meanwhile, other manufacturers are electing to employ less expensive production methods to deliver EVs with a lower price tag and a higher range. As long as carbon fiber is expensive, it's hard to make an argument for its use in consumer vehicles... except when it's a selling point for those who salivate at hearing "carbon fiber," and who are willing to shell out big bucks to get it.

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by ChewChewTrain

I find the strategic business alliances between car companies most interesting. Benz financially rescued Tesla. You can bet a lot of Tesla DNA will end up in Benz EVs.

Panasonic is also a partner in the Tesla Gigafactory.

Isn't Ford associated with Mazda?

What other bed partners are there?

Toyota also had a partnership with Tesla to make the Rav4 EV. It is how Tesla ended up with the NUMMI factory. Toyota sold their Tesla shares once the contracted Rav4 EVs were made. It was around the time they brought the Mirai to market.

Ford had controlling ownership of Mazda, but Mazda brought back most of it when Ford was in financial trouble. They are working with Toyota on some things now. The Yaris iA in the US is the SkyActiv Mazda2.

There was a Ford and Toyota partnership working on hybrid trucks, but it fell apart. I don't think a power split system lends itself to truck duties, and Toyota likely wants to stick to HSD. Sounds like the F150 hybrid will be a parallel one.

Originally Posted by SteveMak

I believe most car buyers don’t care how a manufacturer does what they need to do. They look at what they get for the dollar. BMW elected to use expensive carbon fiber (carbon fiber forms are all hand-built) to reduce weight. It’s one of the things that makes a car cost US$42,400 while offering a range of only about 100 miles (EPA).

No doubt carbon fiber delivers huge bang (light-weight, yet stronger than steel and dent-resistant), but it does this at a huge bucks price.

Meanwhile, other manufacturers are electing to employ less expensive production methods to deliver EVs with a lower price tag and a higher range. As long as carbon fiber is expensive, it's hard to make an argument for its use in consumer vehicles... excel when it's a selling point for those who salivate at hearing "carbon fiber," and who are willing to shell out big bucks to get it.

Carbon fiber is expensive, but not that long ago a car like the i3 would have cost twice as much to make. The cost reductions BMW has achieved allows for carbon fiber parts to be used in lower cost cars. The Prius Prime plug in has a carbon fiber hatch.

[SteveMak]

Originally Posted by trollbait

...Carbon fiber is expensive, but not that long ago a car like the i3 would have cost twice as much to make. The cost reductions BMW has achieved allows for carbon fiber parts to be used in lower cost cars...

No offense intended to you, but that quote sounds "salesman-ish." We're talking about the i3's cost vs range, and that's "pricey" vs "embarrassingly short." Carbon fiber doesn't change that... unless you're enamored with carbon and are willing to pay the premium and sacrifice range to get the alleged benefits of carbon fiber in an i3.

The benefits are "I got a carbon fiber tub in my car." They are not "my car is less expensive than the competition due to carbon" or "I have noteworthy (in a good way) range because of carbon fiber."

[luv2spd]

Carbon fiber doesn't make much financial sense, but if you want to get that last bit of advantage and you have money, then it's the go to material for car manufacturers.

The way I look at it is this: if the '16 $65,000 Ford Mustang GT350R has carbon fiber wheels from factory; why don't sports cars that cost double that come with them? Replacement cost for one front and one rear wheel for the Mustang is $3,433 and $4,053. Now before you think that's ridiculous; some people are willing to pay the $15,000 option for carbon-ceramic brakes on their new car. So there is a lot of craziness going on. I have been looking at buying a set of carbon fiber wheels for my motorcycle for 7-10 years now; but they are still the same price that they were back then which is about $4,600 a set.

Here is a test result that Car And Driver did when they compared the same '16 GT350 Mustang with aluminum vs carbon fiber wheels:

Aluminum vs Carbon Fiber
Wheel and Tire Weight: F:61lb R: 61lb; F:46lb R:47lb
Acceleration 30-50mph: 10.8s vs 9.9s
Acceleration 50-70mph: 10.5s vs 9.7s
Acceleration 30-130mph: 17.7s vs 16.5s
Coast Down 60-1mph: 139s vs 134s
Coast Down 60-1mph: 4944ft vs 4785ft

In motorcycle racing carbon fiber wheels are banned because of their cost, so they use magnesium. A magazine once did a test using the same bike that they fitted with carbon fiber wheels vs the stock cast aluminum; the bike was 2s per lap quicker which is a huge gain per money spent. This is a South African made BST rear rim that costs about $2,500; it has a special clear coat that provides a UV protection that is guaranteed for 10 years.

[ChewChewTrain]

WOW! Those are some impressive differences, but how do you not worry about parking the car in public with such expensive rims?

[R.I.D.E.]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said.

[luv2spd]

Originally Posted by ChewChewTrain

WOW! Those are some impressive differences, but how do you not worry about parking the car in public with such expensive rims?

I totally agree with you, that's one of the few downsides with a rim that expensive. You can do things to avoid thiefs as much as possible, but there is only so much you can do. I have an underground parking with cameras, and my motorcycle is always under a black cover when not used; and it's not one of those covers that has "YAMAHA" written on it to advertise what's under it.

[Draigflag]

You cant worry about what "might" happen. A set of tyres on a Veyron Super Sport are $25,000. Most people fit locking wheel nuts, but I always take mine off, not a big fan and it only takes one over enthusiastic mechanic to screw them up, literally!

[ChewChewTrain]

Originally Posted by Draigflag

You cant worry about what "might" happen. A set of tyres on a Veyron Super Sport are $25,000. Most people fit locking wheel nuts, but I always take mine off, not a big fan and it only takes one over enthusiastic mechanic to screw them up, literally!

SO, how long have you had the Veyron, Paul?

[trollbait]

Originally Posted by SteveMak

No offense intended to you, but that quote sounds "salesman-ish." We're talking about the i3's cost vs range, and that's "pricey" vs "embarrassingly short." Carbon fiber doesn't change that... unless you're enamored with carbon and are willing to pay the premium and sacrifice range to get the alleged benefits of carbon fiber in an i3.

The benefits are "I got a carbon fiber tub in my car." They are not "my car is less expensive than the competition due to carbon" or "I have noteworthy (in a good way) range because of carbon fiber."

Without the carbon fiber, the i3 would still be pricey, have an even shorter range, and also be slower. Until the Ioniq Electric, it was the most efficient BEV available in North America.

Cutting weight is going to be a big part of cars hitting fuel efficiency and carbon emission targets. Carbon fiber will be an option to do so, even in cheaper cars. The Prius Prime already uses a carbon fiber hatch, and it starts at $27.2k or so.