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Old 04-17-2007, 07:14 PM   #11
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Nope even the Prius is about 4 times worse pollution wise compares to even a diesel fired electric plant. The worst coal fired is about 6 times better then the Prius and new ones are about 50 times better. It’s all because they can put such huge scrubbers and emission controls on the plants that they can't afford or physically fit on any car. Also every time a car starts it is really bad until it warms up while coal plants run at peak efficiency the entire time they are on.

Apples to oranges…

Hopefully Darell will come along and tell us what a typical true EV uses per mile.
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Old 04-17-2007, 07:15 PM   #12
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Metro any idea on your watts / mile?
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Old 04-17-2007, 07:28 PM   #13
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Ug... First off - this doesn't tell us what we're paying to drive! It only tells us what we pay "at the pump" or "with the electricity bill." Factor in all the wonderful things we pay for as a society, and suddenly domestic electricity as a "fuel" comes up on top of the heap every time.

Here's the deal - an EV will travel between three to five miles on a kWh *from the socket*. So that takes into account all the charger/battery losses. And of course modern battery chemistries are FAR more efficient - as are the electronics to charge them. So for a modern EV, it would likely be safe to lean toward the five miles/kWh number. After 25k miles driving an EV1, my average was about 180 Wh/mile. That's with lead-acid, and in a car built in 1996. Imagine what we could do today!
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:06 PM   #14
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Is that how much you're paying with bullfrog .08 cents/kwhr? Great Price.
Actually, the switch comes in May. If I recall, it's around 9 or 10 cents.
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Old 04-18-2007, 05:00 AM   #15
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Good numbers Darell !! I checked into chargers a few years ago and they don't get much better than 90 percent - turned out most are less than that so I ended up with a bridge rectifier and an auto-transformer to charge my 36/45 volt battery pack on my scooter and got about 90% efficiency for the charger if I didn't push the amps too high. Every time you convert the AC to DC there usually is a diode drop that can't be eliminated and that is where a good part of the losses occure. Usually from the initial line voltage rectification since no one seems to use switching FETS for that job which would have a much lower voltage drop across their junction. That .6 to 1.4 volt drop times the amps it is passing becomes some serious watts - this is why having higher voltage batteries is better - the diode drop is the same for the most part and the amps can go down as the voltage goes up to get the same watt hours into a higher voltage battery pack.
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Old 04-18-2007, 05:43 AM   #16
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One 35 mpg gasser is cheaper by far than one 35 mpg gasser PLUS a 40 mile per charge electric.
My annual miles are greater than those used in the comparison, many of those miles are on longer trips (100 miles or more) that would completely deplete the batteries leading to more frequent replacement AND the requirement of a long range vehicle with its attendant insurance, inspection, maintenance costs.
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:55 AM   #17
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So far, since we sold our Escape Hybrid in November, my electric conversion has been saving us over $600/month - mostly because I can't drive it yet! You too can save a significant amount of money doing an electric conversion yourself. The longer it takes, the more you'll save.

Seriously, if it were all about cost, EVs are still a tough sale given range and charging limitations. In the end, I expect to save money overall, but it's going to take a few years to recoup a return on my investment. ($450 and my time so far. I have no EV parts yet.)
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Old 04-18-2007, 08:15 AM   #18
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where do you find a battery pack for an electric car for $600? last week we looked at a commuti-car and it needed batterys, now this is a very very small electric car, 2 passenger, 2,000 pounds (with batterys), 50 mile range, 50mph top speed, and the battery pack for it was going to cost right around $1,000, and that was the best price we could find, I forget what it was if you went to some place like Batterys Plus, maybe $1,600.
I'm building an electric bicycle, and am saving up money for a lithium battery for it, the lowest price I've been able to find is going to be $420.
the total that I've spent on my civic vx in the last 2 years is almost excactly what it would have cost to buy this commuti car and replace the things that needed to be replaced, then figure in that the battery pack on it would need to be replaced every 15,000-20,000 miles if you used lead acid (nicad last much longer, but cost more), with numbers that seem more acurite to me punched in to that web site, my totals come to $0.075 for my vx, and $0.113 for an electric car.
now compare the cost of my electric bicycle, to the cost of my honda 125cc motorcycle: $0.063 for the motorcycle, and $0.071 for the electric bicycle (this makes some assumptions on motor life, controler life, and of course the electricty is already paid for... solar) of course with the motorcycle I had to license it once (collector plates that never expire) and it goes faster, but I'm building the electric bicycle because of my ideals, not because I'm cheap, same reason that I paid $1,900 for my vx, insted of $120 for a civic hatch back that a friend now owns that only gets 35mpg, or simaler price for cars that get even worse mileage.
of course the book History of Hybrid and Electric Vehicles, points out that polution from electricity is not in the production of it, as much as it is in the storage of it, that if you are useing lead acid batterys, you are poluting more with an electric car then with a gas car.
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:47 PM   #19
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where do you find a battery pack for an electric car for $600? last week we looked at a commuti-car and it needed batterys, now this is a very very small electric car, 2 passenger, 2,000 pounds (with batterys), 50 mile range, 50mph top speed, and the battery pack for it was going to cost right around $1,000, and that was the best price we could find,
Depends on quality of course.

Did the Comuta have its original 8x6v 48v pack? If so, I've read of a number of people buying Sam's Club golf cart batteries - the price quoted was often around $50. Though PBA batteries have gone up in price recently.

Still I take your point. $600 is about what you'd pay for a cheap set of EIGHT 6v batteries. And aside from the Citi-/Comuta Cars (and the ForkenSwift), nobody's running 48v any more. The NEV's are mostly running 72v.

(PS - unless the car's voltage was upped from the stock 48v, you never would have seen 50 mph or 50 mile range.)
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:03 PM   #20
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sorry, yes, it was bumped up to 72 volts, it had 9 8 volt batteries, and the price we checked on was for Trogens, because your electric vehicle is only as good as the battery you put in it.
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