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Old 09-10-2008, 08:28 AM   #1
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Starting to build my own system

OK there has been alot of debates on whether HHO can work or not. So i found plans and i will start building it. I will post pictures along the way and i have a pretty well kept gas log so you can see any improvements. I hope this can end some bad blood between everyone.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:33 AM   #2
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I hope this can end some bad blood between everyone.
Doubt it, if you don't get the desired results, they'll just tell you "You're doin it wrong!"

But, do it anyways for yourself and for those of us who are trying realistic, physically possible ways to save gas. The data will be helpful.

I see you're trying this on a diesel? You wont be able to lean it out like a gas engine, but since you have no throttle you don't have that loss. Diesels almost always run lean naturally... So, in your case it'll be a simple test of combustion enhancement. Not sure how well it will work... you don't have spark plugs either, but you may need to adjust your injection timing to deal with a possibly much faster burn. Diesel knock is probably something to avoid, so I'd shut off the HHO at really light loads (like idle) to avoid any potential badness there.

Should be interesting!
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:49 AM   #3
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yeah thanks for the info i think i am putting a duty cylcle switch on so i can turn it on and off. But you do have a good point lol some people here would swear that it works so they might not believe me on the results if they are bad but i figured someone has to do this for those of us out there that really want to know
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:37 PM   #4
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Does your car have any kind of throttle position switch? If you're real lucky it's got a switch that turns on (or off) when you are at 0 throttle. Could use it to turn off the HHO.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:09 AM   #5
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hiya cruz, glad to see someone else in it just to figure out if it works or not
I have some experience in building the pwms and also building a circuit to fool the 02 sensor.
i have had slight improvements with my setup, but nowhere near what the people selling claim. i will let you know though, the extra power and extremely smooth ride alone are enough for me to keep mine hooked up.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dalez0r View Post
Does your car have any kind of throttle position switch? If you're real lucky it's got a switch that turns on (or off) when you are at 0 throttle. Could use it to turn off the HHO.
I am not sure i will look into it... lol how would i know??
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:15 AM   #7
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hiya cruz, glad to see someone else in it just to figure out if it works or not
I have some experience in building the pwms and also building a circuit to fool the 02 sensor.
i have had slight improvements with my setup, but nowhere near what the people selling claim. i will let you know though, the extra power and extremely smooth ride alone are enough for me to keep mine hooked up.
I totally agree... i am going off of a duty cycle pricinple and installing an on/off switch along with a temp gauge on the electorlysis container because i drive alot and i dont want it to boil and explode lol

oh so does every car have an O2 sensor my car is a 95 diesel with no ecu so i dont think i would need to trick the O2 but i dont know anything about that so if you could inform me that would be great.
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:07 AM   #8
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I totally agree... I am going off of a duty cycle principle and installing an on/off switch along with a temp gauge on the electrolysis container because I drive a lot and I don't want it to boil and explode lol

oh so does every car have an O2 sensor my car is a 1995 diesel with no ECU so I don't think i would need to trick the O2 but I don't know anything about that so if you could inform me that would be great.
The only way to find out is to try the HHO.

If you all read the FAQ I also sent you, if you set the cold amps to about 5 amps it will run about 12-15 amps with out over heating.
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Old 09-11-2008, 05:47 AM   #9
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I worked for Mercedes until I opened my own shop in 1984, nice car.

Mercedes transitioned from throttle control to injection pump control of their diesel engine passenger cars about 1981. After that date they had no manifold vacuum, and actually had to add a vacuum pump to run the door locks and climate control.

Before the transition, if you had a bad servo in your central locking system the engine would not shut off when you tried to turn it off with the key. The later version shut off all fuel from the injection pump, so a vacuum leak would not cause the engine to keep running when you tried to turn it off.

What you disconnected was probably Exhaust Gas Recirculation, which was added to try to keep NOX emissions down. That would increase your peak combustion chamber pressure and might actually give you some more power. In a gasoling engine the same thing would probably make your engine spark knock.

The statement about the vacuum leak has a purpose so stay with me. The vacuum line was only a couple of millimeters in diameter, but enough air entered the engine to keep it running.

Now as far as HHO. My thought would be if there was a potential benefit, it would be in a vehicle like your Mercedes. It's possible that your generator could provide a significant amount of the fuel and especially the oxygen for idling.

Idling is estimated to consume 13% of total fuel use. I would not do anything to stop the generator from working when the car is idling, because that may provide you with the greatest percentage of your benefit, assuming there is one.

Another thing about that Benz diesel, high alternator loads probably have almost no effect on idle fuel consumption (my opinion0. Basically this means
Your energy cost of generating HHO is very small especially since your idle speed is completely controlled by the volume of fuel delivered by the injection pump.

Now the question arises, will there be an overall benefit? Because of the unique operational characteristics of diesel engines compared to gasoline, I think you have a real opportunity to see if there is a real improvement. This is especially true if you already use hypermiling strategies before your installation.

Many people install a HHO system then really focus on their driving habits, so any mileage improvement claim is corrupted by the fact that they would have a significant improvement from driving style alone.

Contrary to what some HHO advocates might believe I am not anti HHO. I am for any method (legal) that helps us put another nail in OPECS coffin. My original engine design was compression ignition. HCCI is compression ignition. Toyota has vehicles on the road today that run without throttle restriction to control the engine. These are gasoline engines that are transitioning to diesel types of operational strategies.

In conclusion. my advice would be to install your system and not shut it off unless your engine was not running. Keep it simple and see how your mileage responds to the HHO. To eliminate HHO at idle would only serve to reduce a potential mileage improvement.

In the late 60s when I first started working in a body shop, there was an old Carolina gent named Zell Head. he like to play a joke on people by filling an upside down paper cup with oxygen and acetylene and lighting it with a match. The resulting explosion was very loud and powerful and scared the crap out of a lot of people.

My point:
I have asked some knowledgeable people whether an engine could run on hydrogen and oxygen without compression. The answer was yes because the 500% higher concentration of pure oxygen enhances combustion radically compared to normal atmospheric concentrations of oxygen. Nitrogen is basically an impediment to combustion.
This was clearly demonstrated by Zell Head's little joke and the violence of the combustion. Any person who has used an acetylene torch knows how strong the combustion is when the torch backfires in the lines.
There may be a place for accumulated amounts of hydrogen and oxygen, when stored separately to be added to the engine during periods of higher loads to allow a smaller engine to provide bursts of power beyond it's normal ability. This means you could use HHO (or other combustibles combined with pure oxygen) to design a vehicle with a smaller engine that could provide higher levels of power for short durations.

Good luck with your experiment. I hope it works out for you with a positive benefit. While that same benefit may not occur in my Civic VX because any added alternator load causes the engine idle speed to increase and more fuel to be consumed, I doubt if that same situation applies to your Benz.

While no additional load to the alternator is free of an energy cost, in your case it may be relatively insignificant.

I am curious to see if these assumptions are correct. The belief of some that my mind is closed to potential efficiency improvements with HHO is only their opinion.

Only a moron would deny factual evidence of ANY improvement as long as that improvement is done with real scientific accuracy under controlled conditions that eliminate (to the greatest possible extent) other mitigating factors.

I have already suggested dyno testing of HHO, with the HHO supplied independently of the engines charging system. A bottle of O2 and a bottle of hydrogen could easily do this with instant readings of additional power. then the system could be switched to use the charging system of the engine to show a benefit (positive or negative). Then the engine could run without any additional hydrogen or oxygen for a base reading.

This method of testing would be under perfecctly controlled conditions, and would prove, without a doubt, whether engine driven HHO generating systems were capable of increasing efficiency.

Power-consumption---------no HHO
Power-consumption---------HHO added without generation by the engine
Power-consumption---------HHO added by engine electrical system generation

The resulting power generated, versus the gasoline consumption specific to that same level of power would clearly demonstrate the effectiveness of HHO under scientifically controlled conditions, with no margin for error.

regards
gary
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:24 AM   #10
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I really dont think that your diesel truck would have an 02 sensor. but i may be wrong. i havent worked on any diesel consumer vehicles newer then 1990
and i agree with ride, if you shut it off while idling you would negate a lot of what you were trying to do.
as long as you condition your plates and use distilled water with a decent generator design it shouldnt overheat, but even if it did overheat that wouldnt cause an explosion, but it would cause a lot of water vapor to come out of your generator. explosions are usually caused if part of your power system is exposed and corrosive inside the cell.
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