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Android Users - Coming Soon! - Migrating from aCar 4.8 to 5.0

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Old 03-25-2009, 05:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by dkjones96 View Post
In your Cavalier the IAT and MAP are used to determine air density and that's calculated against TPS/RPM and confirmed with O2.

With a mass flow system the less dense the air the less the air flow meter reads and that amount is calculated against RPM/TPS then confirmed with O2.
After doing further research last night, this may be the main reason why some cars respond and other don't. It appears that cars that use speed density (Manifold Absolute Pressure, MAP) are more likely to see mileage gains with a WAI and cars with Mass Air Flow (MAF) meters are less likely to see a gain with WAI. MAF are better able to adjust to the changes and keep everything the same while MAP can be "fooled" by the warmer air creating slightly better economy at the cost of higher emissions (NOx).

So my question to philip is, what does your Saturn use, MAF or MAP?
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Old 03-25-2009, 06:59 AM   #72
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my car is a GM built between 1989 and 2006 therefore it is a speed density system partially. My computer uses the Map signal for idle but not for run. What it does for situations above idle, it abandons the MAP sensor and uses TPS and the O2 (which happens to be a wide band). I only know this because I have close ties to some tuning companies that have studied this computer to exhaustion. When I can afford it I will buy the software to switch on the lean burn program in my computer. It's true my Ecotec was designed with lean burn in mind I have no idea how the program for this will affect milage but I imagine it will be significant.
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Old 03-25-2009, 10:56 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by NovaResource View Post
Mileage is better in the summer because the engine warms up quicker, not because it is ingesting warm air. Also, summer gas is different from winter gas.


True but much of that improvement is due to the inaccuracy of filling the tank. My assumption is that I didn't fill the tank as much those times. Evidenced by lower mileage in the previous and next tankfulls . That's why you can't base mileage on one tank (especially when it's only 1 or 2 gallons). You have to base economy on the average over several tankfulls.

I base my mileage conclusions of decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. My Insight gives instant, trip a, trip b, and lifetime mileage displays.
Tank to tank was relevant on my VX that was OBD1. Its irrelevant to my current car or my conclusions based on real world experience.


Not always. If too lean you get higher NOx emissions.

YOU added the too lean caveat to enhance your flawed position.


That was true for carbureted cars that didn't atomize fuel well. That's not the case with fuel injected car where fuel atomization is much better.
Fuel atomization is a function of delivery method and ambient temperature as well as combustion chamber temperature at the instant of ignition of the fuel air mix. You must be the sole individual posting on this forum that believes atomization is the same at 100 degrees farenheit or 40 degrees below. Fuel mixes change from summer to winter, that is true. What you seem to ignore is the energy content is the same. The change is in the volatility.

If you want to debate you need to self educate.

regards
gary
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:02 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BEEF View Post
his test is total BS?

I don't see you doing any testing. it is easy to discredit someone elses efforts. where are yours? he is at least doing something.

the whole "not good enough" thing is easy to say when you have done nothing. if you don't agree with his results, do one yourself. disprove him the scientific way, not just by saying it's BS.
Here goes. Last week my milage was 192.1 miles and I used 8.339 gallons for an MPG of 23.03. That will be baseline #1 for using the stock cold air inlet.

Today I filled up again:
256.4 miles


11.207 gallons used:


For an MPG of 22.87. That will be baseline #2 for the stock cold air inlet. Both numbers are similar and fairly typical for me in the winter.

Removing the factory cold air inlet. Here's the stock setup:




Closeup of the inlet on the outside of the radiator support:


Here the hose connecting the inlet to the air box is disconnected from the inlet and pointed towards the radiator and exhaust manifold to pick up warm, engine air:




Here the inlet is blocked off with duct tape to prevent any cool air from entering.


The inlet was secured in place with a wiretie to prevent it from moving. One week from today I'll have my first data from a WAI. My schedule for next week is almost identical to this past week so mileage should be close to the same.
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:24 PM   #75
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Can you read your inlet air temp?
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:26 PM   #76
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If you don't have a scangauge a great way to read the intake air temp is to use a wireless outdoor thermometer. Drop the outdoor transmitter in the air cleaner box and you can read the intake air temp from inside the car.
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Old 03-28-2009, 03:44 AM   #77
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How high do cheapo outdoor temp sensors usually read anyway?
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Old 03-28-2009, 04:11 AM   #78
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Changing weather over the course of a couple weeks would make it difficult to compare IAT even if he had IAT readings from last week (which he does not). There's also other uncontrollable conditions, like traffic. And then there's subconscious driving differences caused by non-blind testing which affect both experiments in this thread. Finally, as with every other experiment that's been done or linked in this debate, each is only regarding one specific car; at most, it can prove or disprove that it will affect that one model.

I don't think anyone here has the resources and ability to produce short-term test results to put an end to this debate. It would require at least single-blind testing with a bunch of cars (a few of each model, and a bunch of different models) on a specified test track or dyno. Anything less than that and anyone here can easily and reasonably disregard the test.

Even better would be double-blind testing with a statistically significant quantity of cars of varied models, done by a lab that does EPA fuel economy testing for manufacturers using the same procedures.

Long-term results are harder to refute.
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Old 03-28-2009, 04:50 AM   #79
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I was just thinking it'd be useful to make sure how much WAI mod is actually managing to raise the temp. More of a sanity check than anything. I guess a regular old thermometer put in the airbox could suffice for that, if it's got the required range.
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Old 03-28-2009, 04:56 AM   #80
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I look forward to your results
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