Is HHO the way to go? - Page 23 - Fuelly Forums

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Old 10-22-2008, 08:59 AM   #221
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Actually, the AC uses pretty much the same amount of electrical power no matter what setting you have it on.

On lower fan settings energy is just converted to heat through resistors instead of being used to force air to your face. If they used PWM for the blower that'd be different.

If you mean wasted electrical energy as in what's lost converting from 80v 3-phase AC to 14v DC good luck avoiding that... If I'm not mistaken the regulators in our cars are of the switching type and you can't get much more efficient than that in such a small space. I suppose you could externally regulate it but that requires actual knowledge of what you are doing.
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:44 PM   #222
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Yeah, I really meant having it on at all when you don't need it, then modified it to high, I think some new cars actually modulate power to the motor.

I guess you could use some of the newer Schottky diodes or a Mosfet based rectifier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_rectification

But that seems hardly worth the expense when the alternator itself is only around 60% efficient and could be improved.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:34 PM   #223
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I wonder if a permanent magnet alternator could be more efficient. That should help by getting rid of the commutation losses associated with the traditional design.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:44 PM   #224
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But then it's "on" all the time, instead of having the field current modulated by the ECU.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:18 PM   #225
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Not necessarily. The electrical load itself would be wholly responsible for the physical load required. Like using a small hobby dc motor as a generator. As electrical demand increases so does the amount of power required to keep a specific RPM. Additionally, more shaft speed is required as load increases if you want to keep the same voltage output.

Voltage drop as load increases has to be the main reason behind not doing it, that and permanent magnets get weaker over time. Without field modulation you've got no control over voltage(in an automotive environment you won't normally regulate engine speed to control voltage) outside of regulating whatever the generator can give you.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:39 PM   #226
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You could generate a lot more power from an alternator with permanent magnets but it would require a more expensive regulator handling the output current instead of the 2-5 amps of rotor current the standard alternator deals with. With my scooter "eCycle" motors I can get 200 amps at 90% efficiency and up to 60+ volts which could be regulated down to 800 amps at 15 volts if I had a controller that could handle that much current.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:57 AM   #227
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More truth on HHO

Ok, I have done allot of research on HHO the past 6 months or so and here are a few things i've learned.

Carburated cars are the easiest to adjust to HHO just adjust the ignition timing with the distributor and reduce the jet size on the carb.

EFI cars up to 1995 can be adjusted by resetting the ecu with HHO running, just disconnect the battery and reattach it after 10 min. then start the vehicle with the HHO. Some vehicles will still richen the mixture even after you reset the ecu. At that point you need a MAP/MAF enhancer which allows you to lean out the mixture as you wish by changing the MAP/MAF signal before it gets to the ECU.

All cars 1996 and newer (OBD II EFI) rely on the O2 sensors for adjusting the Air/Fuel mixture. Some 1996 to 1999 Vehicles may see an improvement by resetting the ECU. If no milage increase is noticed the vehicle will most likely require an EFIE or Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer to change and adjust the signal sent from the upstream O2 sensors to ECU.

As far as this takl of "It take more electricity to produce HHO than you get from burning it" is both true and false.

Electrolising water to produce HHO also creates Heat and its product water vapour which are not HHO and are basically wasted, therefore you are not getting back the same amount of energy you put in.

But,
Hydrogen gas (H2) has approx. 3 times the btu potential as gasoline, when mixed with Oxigen gas (O2) it burns almost instantaniously and completely producing only water. HHO burns completely at A/F ratios between 8:1 and 70:1 which is why it is effective on both gasoline and diesel.

When HHO is fed into the intake of the engine it is being used more like an additive, effectively increasing the efficiency of the stratisfied gasoline and air that its mixed with. The more complete burn slowly cleans the engine and keeps it cool.

Bottom line: Mixing HHO with the air allows you to remove some fuel being injected without side effects of leaning out the mixture too much and causing heat problems (overheating causing engine damage).

Its all about leaning out the A/F ratio
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:31 PM   #228
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Hmm.

Why do you need to rejet the carb? It can't inject more fuel because it's compensating and I was under the impression that the ECU enriched the mixture and that is what people are fighting.

Did you advance or retard timing?

Wouldn't a more complete burn mean more heat is readily available for the engine to absorb? How does that make it run cooler?

Just a couple of notes:

HHO doesn't care what AFR you are running in the engine. HHO is a stoich mixture in and of its own.

Leaning out an engine some isn't what causes engine damage. Leaning out an engine to the point of missfire does because the gasses are still burning when the valve opens and it gets fire roasted.
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:04 PM   #229
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Good points

The ECU is the biggest problem in fuel economy, its job is to pump enough fuel into the engine so that no matter what situation the engine is getting more fuel than it needs so some is left over to feed the burn in the catalytic convertor.

It always adds more fuel.

So what you need to do to fix that is change the MAP/MAF and/or O2 sensor signals going to the computer. You usually get a box with some adjustment built in so you can switch from stock to enhanced and city or highway mixture settings.

From what ive been reading you would usually retard the timing (closer to TDC) because the HHO will increases the flame speed of combustion. The combustion on power stroke is finished quicker and therefore has enough time to burn complete and clean.

As far as the heat situation that usually depends on how lean you're running the car and how much gas you're producing. The water4gas method or some SS wire in a penutbutter jar will not produce enough HHO for much increase. Usually 1 LPM is the minimum to really confirm the effects. Some cooling also comes from the excess water vapor just like water injection. The water vapor and HHO keep the combustion fairly cool to the point you lean the mixture too much.
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Old 10-26-2008, 12:10 AM   #230
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Map Enhancer

Ok, I have a 1996 Honda Civic EX.

I dont know if I need an EFIE for any impovements?


But I do need to know the colored wire to hook it up too.

Thanks, and yes, I understand how to test for it. But I will screw things up.

So what color wire am I looking to cut?

Thanks Will
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