Is HHO the way to go? - Page 9 - Fuelly Forums

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Old 03-15-2008, 09:09 PM   #81
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Nope you get the oxygen from the air that combines with the gasoline. All the O2 that was generated with the Hydrogen just recombines with it so it contributes a net zero to added oxygen but it does add combustion heat and a better flame to ignite the gasoline.

The generator gets hot because of the high resistance of the water - by lowering it you reduce the heat I.E. a lead acid battery can produce a lot of gas without really getting too hot with only a few amps once you get the battery voltage over 14.25 volts. The problem with a lead battery is the wasted 2+ volts per cell because of the lead acid chemistry. By using platinum electrodes and sulfuric acid you reduce the plate voltage to a minimum - the voltage that results is what is required to separate the H from the O.

Yes I have built hydrogen generators but I used salt water which was not the way to go - never thought of using a lye to increase conduction either. I also have a fuel cell PEM that makes a good amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen separated by the membrane using distilled water at about 3.2 volts and up to 3 amps quite quickly with little heat. It also recombines the H and O and puts out about 2 volts and consumes the gases at a rate proportionate to the current load on the cell.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:35 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by flapdoodle View Post
The dielectric permittivity (dielectric constant. Distilled water has a constant of 81) decreases while the dielectric loss increases. (making even more heat). Measurement shows that the resistivity (inverse of resistance) decreases after hydrogen charging. This degradation can be explained as hydrogen forming hydroxy (OH-) bonds in the surface, which prevents the ions from switching. (Ions carry the hydrogen to one electrode, and oxygen to the other. In other words, a charged cloud, or plasma). Note that there will be an associated breakdown of electrolyte and the electrode surface.

Since water boils at 212 degrees, you will not see steam at the temperatures you quote. If you take a magnifying glass to the hydrogen production you will see minute droplets being ejected from the electrolyte surface. I installed mist shields on my cells to prevent the mist from being drawn up the supply tubes.

The temperature of 158F is almost meaningless since thermal runaway will vary with the cell design and operating conditions.

Bill
Could the reason you're seeing steam be related to the fact that your pressure is low? Your drawing a little bit of vacuum, right? Vacuum will lower your boiling point?
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:24 AM   #83
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Question

flapdoodle -

Have you determined a way to measure the "health" of the electrolyte. In old-school non-sealed batteries, you can use a hydrometer like this :

How is the hydrometer used in measuring the charge of a car battery?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0034749AAt2iE8
Quote:
The hydrometer measures the density, and therefore indirectly the amount of sulfuric acid in the electrolyte. A low reading means that sulfate is bound to the battery plates and that the battery is discharged. Upon recharge of the battery, the sulfate returns to the electrolyte.

Hydrometers for testing car batteries will show the charge state on the side of the float. The better the charge, the higher the float in the hydrometer tube. A fully charged battery should have a Specific Gravity reading of at least 1.250.
If I make a "fresh batch" of the solution and record it's reading using a hydrometer, then I should be able to gauge the degradation of the solution in the cell over time.

What do you think?

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Old 03-31-2008, 08:32 AM   #84
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I use litmus paper to check the pH of the solution. When the cell degrades, the amperage drops and the solution gets muddy looking. I have a panel mount LED ammeter on the way that will be mounted on the HHO "control panel".

I fear a hygrometer will not tell me much because there is no way of telling exactly what salt mixture is in the solution. For example, when you use baking soda, it starts to change to NaOH immediately upon applying power. You can watch the pH go from 7 to 10 in a short time.
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:04 PM   #85
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flapdoodle -

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Originally Posted by flapdoodle View Post
I use litmus paper to check the pH of the solution. When the cell degrades, the amperage drops and the solution gets muddy looking. I have a panel mount LED ammeter on the way that will be mounted on the HHO "control panel".

I fear a hygrometer will not tell me much because there is no way of telling exactly what salt mixture is in the solution. For example, when you use baking soda, it starts to change to NaOH immediately upon applying power. You can watch the pH go from 7 to 10 in a short time.
Thanks, I will go get some litmus paper.

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Old 04-01-2008, 08:06 AM   #86
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Started reading this forum and decided to join. I have little mechanicle knowledge but have looked into learning about HHO. The best source for building and installing an injection unit that I have found without spending any money can be found at http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf and http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Guide.pdf

If you have not seen these, it is worth a quick look. I hope to build one in spite of everyone I mention it to telling me it won't work. Only one way to find out in my mind.
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:51 PM   #87
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I like the plate system. Easy, cheap, and probably very effective.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:01 PM   #88
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Ok this is my first post. Been reading along and would like to throw some thoughts into the bag. I am NEWBE to all this and would love to get a good design system like Water4gas. You mentioned about the o2 sensors and I have been reading that this is a big hurtle. I have a 95 Cavalier LS which I will be experimenting on. I found this guys site regarding EFEI sensors that he makes. www.pwmpower.com may help solve that problem also there is after Market chips on EBay that trick the o2 sensor into leaning the fuel mixture. Will this work? One more thing since we are ultimately trying to get better MPG would it not be a good idea to take off the catalytic converter in the exhaust since the hho is burning so clean? I mean I would piss in my gas tank if I thought it would help!!! BTW GREAT SITE. We need to get all those HHO YOUTUBE guys in hear as well. MAYBE make a contest or something. You could call it "put up or shut up"!!! OK im done!
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:08 PM   #89
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Spence -

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Originally Posted by Spence View Post
Started reading this forum and decided to join. I have little mechanicle knowledge but have looked into learning about HHO. The best source for building and installing an injection unit that I have found without spending any money can be found at http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf and http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Guide.pdf

If you have not seen these, it is worth a quick look. I hope to build one in spite of everyone I mention it to telling me it won't work. Only one way to find out in my mind.
I am really impressed with the PDFs and the YouTubes that Smack setup :

Part 1: The Intro to Smack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxPQd...x=0&playnext=1

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Old 04-02-2008, 08:13 PM   #90
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2 efie or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebrich1 View Post
I am NEWBE to all this and would love to get a good design system like Water4gas.
You mentioned about the o2 sensors and I have been reading that this is a big hurtle. I have a 95 Cavalier LS which I will be experimenting on. I found this guys site regarding EFEI sensors that he makes.
One more thing since we are ultimately trying to get better MPG would it not be a good idea to take off the catalytic converter in the exhaust since the hho is burning so clean?
Inspection facilities take a dim view of this sort of thing.
BTW GREAT SITE. We need to get all those HHO YOUTUBE guys in hear as well. MAYBE make a contest or something. You could call it "put up or shut up"!!! OK im done!
What I want from Youtube is actual information without the blurry pix and a noisy motor drowning out the commentator.
try this link http://www.thermo1.com/hyboost.htm

although you can also find a wealth of experimentation at energetic forums.
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