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Old 01-08-2008, 10:02 AM   #1
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Is HHO the way to go?

I saw the add for Water 4 Gas here and decided to check it out. Well I must say I'm impressed, I have been told by so many in industry that cracking hydrogen from water takes more energy to make than the gas that is produced that I wrote off the idea of hydrogen along with the fuel cell revolution. There have been so many Nay Sayers going, the infrastructure of America cannot support broad use of hydrogen and prodution, that I thought hydrogen was just another idea that was researched, tested, and found to be a failure. Incedentially the nay sayers being large companies I'v researched in my quest for greener living. A hobby of stock research and futures on energies, broad range HHO production is said to be too expensive.

Well I was wrong, its seems as easy as a revolution of backyard mechanics putting together small jar HHO generators to double the mileage of there cars was a reality. So I have been combing the net looking for all sorts of info on HHO and the best source I found was Youtube, just enter HHO or MPG in a search and you will be treated to thousands of video's by home experimenters making HHO for pennies. Also Water 4 Gas has great schematics for building HHO generators for cheap.

HHO, Hydrogen/Oxygen is simply made by making a sandwich of stainless steel plates in a bath of baking soda and water. Use the 12 volts from your car battery to start the electrolisis process in the plates and viola, you can suppliment your gasoline with a stream of HHO.

The benefits, in a fuel injected car, the O2 sensor will read a rich condition and lean the mix, your burning less gasoline getting better mileage and it only costs you water and baking soda.

So as soon as I buy my next car ( Saturn, Civic, Escort, or Geo), I'll start building some cells and see how much HHO I can make.

Has anyone out there had any luck assembling cells and does the mileage double? From the info on Youtube, it seems the skys the limit. Oh also, if you do build a system, make sure you install back fire valves, so you don't have a Hindenburg under the hood.

Oh, MPG Research has started a column on Hydrogen, this seems to be the fuel of the future, I can't wait to hear the responce. Thank you.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:53 AM   #2
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hydrogen is a great fuel and pretty easy to harvest.... it does take energy to do that so there's no magic...

i'd sure like to see someone here take on something like this... there's a lot of wild things being claimed on the web and a lot of good things are over inflated to the point where they become incredible, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any benefit in it...

the way i see it it's kind of a hybrid system where electric energy is not converted into mechanical motion, but used to produce a potent fuel additive that can be used in the existing motor without the weight penalty of batterys and aditional motors...

i don't know much about it, but i think if someone claims this is a good idea it's worth giving it a try, if only to prove them wrong.
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:51 PM   #3
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See the bearded lady, the dog faced boy, the fire eater, only 50 cents folks, step right up. Thanks very much, friend!

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Old 01-08-2008, 03:12 PM   #4
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Having seen some of the "ideas" on the inet and other places for this my understanding is...

The H2O is split to provide hydrogen then it is burned to provide energy and recombines with the oxygen to produce water as the only emission byproduct.

Damn ; Shell , BP , Exxon Mobil , Texaco should be getting on board here.
What IS WRONG with 'em?

Sorry but the laws of physics simply mean there is a negative outcome to the energy equation : It take more energy to produce hydrogen by electrolysis then you get from burning the end product.

Ahh no wait...yes I see it now...it's a conspiracy by the oil companies and the government ...they are probably reading this as I write it so I'll finish here.

Satanic mechanic: Yep an oldie but goldie from the Strolling Bones er I mean Rolling Sones and yes I have to agree "You can't always get what you want"

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Old 01-11-2008, 06:46 AM   #5
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It's actually worse than that, not only is electrolysis not super efficient, but the energy you're using for the electrolysis is created by an alternator that's not all that efficient which is driven by the explosion of your hyrdogen... etc.

You'd be lucky if your MPG only dropped by 1/4 instead of by 1/2.

The only way I'll ever be convinced that Hydrogen is truly special is if there's a cheap DIY way to build a device that can harness it and store it through solar energy and in that way just have my own at home refueling station. Until this can be done and proven cheaper than just a regular electric solar panel charging a battery, then this will remain a useless technology.

As you said in your initial post there is no good way to distribute H, there's no really good way to create it (the purely green ways are not very efficient) and in the end it's only being used as a substitute for using a battery. Espeically in a fuel cell car, they're not magical they're just using H as a medium to transport and store electricity... and you know what? Batteries are FAR more effiecient.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:10 AM   #6
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Just wondering if the exhaust heat could be used to fire a peltier device to do the actual electrolysis? Now THAT would only be waste heat, and limited solely to how much extra could be produced, not making it a perpetual motion machine BUT actually re-using some of the by-product.

I don't know if HHO injection actually works (let's assume for sake of argument that it does) but if it in fact does - then *whatever* excess HHO was produced was burned - then it's free fuel additive at any time, except for the startup cost of the peltier.

Would that qualify? I know that it's not perpetual motion but increased (by how much I don't know) efficiency by not using mechanical drag (like a turbo-driven alternator previously discussed) and not using the alternator to generate the electrical charge?

All THAT said - would the increased FE overcome the weight increase of the peltier device to power it, and the increased water weight?
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itjstagame View Post
It's actually worse than that, not only is electrolysis not super efficient, but the energy you're using for the electrolysis is created by an alternator that's not all that efficient which is driven by the explosion of your hyrdogen... etc.

You'd be lucky if your MPG only dropped by 1/4 instead of by 1/2.
Could I see your calculations? Because I don't believe your entirely right. We installed an amateur version of the device noted on the water4gas website in my friend's volvo 740 (89). We simply used a mason jar, some high gauge wire, and some rust proof screws. Filled the jar with some water with as much salt diluted in it as possible. After a week of on road testing the volvo had an additional 10 mpg (50% ^). We have yet to do any definite testing, but its obvious there's an increase.

I spoke with a previous chem. teacher at my school (very interested in the process) who will be working with us to figure out the most efficient and worth while way to use electrolysis.

The solar panels however are not a bad idea, as in order to increase your mpg even more, you will need more jars for electrolysis, and therefor more energy.


P.S. the best part of the experiment was I had everything we needed, and even if I didn't it would only have cost about $2. If you don't believe me try it yourself! Its very easy to install/uninstall, and the only "damage" to your car will be a small hole on your intake.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:18 PM   #8
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Ok, the misunderstanding here is in what the hydrogen is doing. In a conventional gas engine, thermal efficiency is only around 25%, compared to a diesel engine which runs closer to 35%. Gasoline is typically C9H20, while diesel fuel is typically C14H30. The diesel cycle burns at a higher compression, which means a higher temperature, which means a more complete breakdown and a more efficient engine. Hydrogen because it doesn't have any bonds that need to be broken to burn, will react and burn immediately, compared to gas/diesel that have a much slower reaction time. It is not the energy in the hydrogen, but the reaction rate that is driving up the efficiency. By having the burn start sooner and hotter, the gasoline/diesel fuel breaks down further. This means a more complete burn, giving more power and less pollution at the same time. So, conclusion; the hydrogen is acting like a catalyst, not a fuel. Take a look at:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...d-messiah.html

This article was origionally published in Popular Mechanics. It's mostly about turbine hybrid vehicles, which are another interesting subject, but take a look at the reference to Uli Kruger about halfway through.

quote:

"But Goodwin wanted more. While researching alternative fuels, he learned about the work of Uli Kruger, a German who has spent decades in Australia exploring techniques for blending fuels that normally don't mix. One of Kruger's systems induces hydrogen into the air intake of a diesel engine, producing a cascade of emissions-reducing and mileage-boosting effects. The hydrogen, ignited by the diesel combustion, burns extremely clean, producing only water as a by-product. It also displaces up to 50% of the diesel needed to fuel the car, effectively doubling the diesel's mileage and cutting emissions by at least half. Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and thus fewer nitrogen-oxide emissions.

"You can feed it hydrogen, diesel, biodiesel, corn oil--pretty much anything but water.""It's really a fantastic chain reaction, all these good things happening at once," Kruger tells me. He has also successfully introduced natural gas--a ubiquitous and generally cheap fuel--into a diesel-burning engine, which likewise doubles the mileage while slashing emissions. In another system, he uses heat from the diesel engine to vaporize ethanol to the point where it can be injected into the diesel combustion chambers as a booster, with similar emissions-cutting effects"
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:33 PM   #9
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It's in my opinion the more rapidly expanding and then lower pressure of the exhaust gasses are cooler before the exhaust valve opens. Theoretically there is no nitrogen-oxide emissions when all the oxygen is used up.
good post "nightphorge"
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsgrossman View Post
Could I see your calculations? Because I don't believe your entirely right. We installed an amateur version of the device noted on the water4gas website in my friend's volvo 740 (89). We simply used a mason jar, some high gauge wire, and some rust proof screws. Filled the jar with some water with as much salt diluted in it as possible. After a week of on road testing the volvo had an additional 10 mpg (50% ^). We have yet to do any definite testing, but its obvious there's an increase.

I spoke with a previous chem. teacher at my school (very interested in the process) who will be working with us to figure out the most efficient and worth while way to use electrolysis.

The solar panels however are not a bad idea, as in order to increase your mpg even more, you will need more jars for electrolysis, and therefor more energy.


P.S. the best part of the experiment was I had everything we needed, and even if I didn't it would only have cost about $2. If you don't believe me try it yourself! Its very easy to install/uninstall, and the only "damage" to your car will be a small hole on your intake.
You might help the believeability factor if you would post some details and pics?

I've "heard" of some people having some success and many that haven't...espec if just adding a simple generator like yours. Depends on the vehicle?


http://pesn.com/2007/11/29/9500461_B..._replications/


As far as I know...the better generators use multiple cells and even frequency controllers. Then there is the need to "control" the ECU and sensors.

You'll find much of the info THIN since some of these people try to sell their generators if they find something that works.

I found a site that reviews some of the generators for sale...can't find the link now.

Check around on the various links?

I'd just love to install something simple like you say and see that kind of gain... ...but I've heard too many people post that they failed to do it. And these were some tech savvy types.

http://www.web-space.tv/free-energy/

Check out chapter 10 for some free H generator designs? Refresh the page?
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