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Old 05-26-2008, 06:16 PM   #41
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Amen. I'm there bro.
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$1000.00 in parts can save you HUNDREDS in gas!
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by hdenter View Post
Hey there doug2168 and Rower,

First of all, doug, the ignorance is bliss aproach will just get you in a whole lot of trouble and expence. If you are not going to take the time and energy to learn about what you want to do to your car, you had better wait until a major manufacturer develops a system that is idiot proof for any car. Every engine in every different car (even from the same company) is different. The same basic longblock can be built and tuned for each different aplication. Thus, one system and/or combination of components and settings will work well for one car and engine and not necessarily for any other. Each year/make/model would need its own combination of components and settings. You or your mechanic would need to tune your car and the system that you choose and had better know what you are doing.

Now Rower, lighten up!. No one is trying to run on h2 alone. Gasoline engines waist a lot energy in the form of unburnt fuel and fuel that is burnt too late or in the exhaust system. The idea is to use h2 to help burn more, or better yet, all of the gasoline fuel so that better efficiency is achieved. The theory is sound. H2, with its lower burn temp and faster and more powerful burn, could help spread the ignition flame in the cumbustion chamber faster so that more gasoline is ignited and used for more power and better efficiency. What these people, and soon myself, are trying to do is find a way to do it that is cost effective and safe. That no major company has tried this is no supprise. Between the liabillity for damages or injuries that could be cause by a mis-hap and the vast number of different engines out there, I would not expect anyone with a lot of money to lose to want to risk it promoting a system at this time. There are just still too many un-answered questions. Sure, there are a lot of hucksters selling snake oil out there. People like myself will need to spend a lot of time doing research and reading about what others are doing and have done before puchasing or building a system and then installing it safely. Ultimately, it may very well be that no one ever comes up with a single system that works universaly on any car. But a lot of people might find ways to get their individual cars to run better. If enough people do find success, then maybe a larger company might get involved. Maybe a few fools will lose a bit of money, but, maybe we might find a way to save a lot of people a lot of money on gas and help out the environment at the same time. Instead of dragging things down, get involved. Do your own research on the how and why. While I am interested in this idea, I do not think all the questions have been answered. I am at the point where I will make a generator and start to test for myself how to get the best production. Then it's on to solve demand/production qestions.

Wish me well and good luck to both of you!
maybe i shouldn't have said what i said the way i said it.....being an aircraft mechanic i know probably more than i should about things. i've got so many hours of studying and experimenting with the hydroxy systems over the last 2 weeks. probably more hours into that than my regular job. i fully understand that HHO burns much cleaner and cooler than the regular gas and adjustments 'may' need to be done to my car. i say 'may' because it all depends on the booster i make and how much HHO is produced and delivered to my engines intake. the easiest way i see to find this out is to look for other people who have used a particular booster on a vehicle like the one i have. see what they have done and take it from there. i could and probably will, just make a smack's booster and stick it in my car. drive for several days, see if the computer agrees with it or not and see how my engine runs and sounds. i really think that if my computer has a problem and the engine begins to ping, that i could just drop the amount of HHO going into the engine, rather than installing and fiddling with my o2 sensors and fuel/air mix.

now, i say all of this, not to prove i know what i'm doing, but rather to just try to make a simplistic point just like i tried to sarcastically do in my original post. i agree with 'hdenter' for the most part and his post.

"shouldn't knock something till ya try it"
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:50 PM   #43
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Rower
We are not getting more energy out than we are putting in.
We are imply converting the electricity produced by the alt. to another form, HHO and using that stored energy to burn the gasoline more efficiently.

This is not perpetual motion, it is simply energy conversion. If YOU picked up a chem book you would see that.
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Old 05-27-2008, 01:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tyeo098 View Post
Rower
We are not getting more energy out than we are putting in.
We are imply converting the electricity produced by the alt. to another form, HHO and using that stored energy to burn the gasoline more efficiently.

This is not perpetual motion, it is simply energy conversion. If YOU picked up a chem book you would see that.
I also have an Engineering background and thoroughly understand physics and thermodynamics and I would love for someone to describe to me how converting mechanical energy from the crank, to electricity at the alternator, to Hydrogen via HHO generator, back to the combustion chamber is not going to lose a tremendous amount of energy in the process? It is perpetual motion in the sense that you think that your engine which is producing Hydrogen and burning the Hydrogen it is producing will ever be a net surplus of energy. That is basically the definition of perpetual motion.

As to the "chemistry" aspect of it. If you want to prove yourself lets see some calculations. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how much Hydrogen you can produce, how much work is needed to produce it and how much energy is gained by adding Hydrogen to the fuel mixture. If you can answer those three questions, it should be easy to tell if a HHO generator works.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:02 PM   #45
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I also have an Engineering background and thoroughly understand physics and thermodynamics and I would love for someone to describe to me how converting mechanical energy from the crank, to electricity at the alternator, to Hydrogen via HHO generator, back to the combustion chamber is not going to lose a tremendous amount of energy in the process? It is perpetual motion in the sense that you think that your engine which is producing Hydrogen and burning the Hydrogen it is producing will ever be a net surplus of energy. That is basically the definition of perpetual motion.

As to the "chemistry" aspect of it. If you want to prove yourself lets see some calculations. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out how much Hydrogen you can produce, how much work is needed to produce it and how much energy is gained by adding Hydrogen to the fuel mixture. If you can answer those three questions, it should be easy to tell if a HHO generator works.
Well im only 17, but let me take a crack at it.

1.
I dont know the exact formula, but the amount of HHO produced is exactly proportional to the wattage introduced. Ill look up this formula later...

2.
Once again, wattage=HHO

3.
Some people report at 30-80% increase in fuel economy.


This reminds me of when my brother learned that when you plug in a DC motor backwards it goes the other way... (He was only 6)
After learning this fact, he theorized that anything plugged in backwards, or manual work applied to it would run in reverse, or produce what went into it, respectively.
It was at this time that, when we went up north for the summer, I found him pushing his ATV in an attempt to create gasoline. I nicely told him (by running him over =P) that gasoline engines, hell, MOST engines dont work in reverse (that being produce gasoline).

But back to now...

What we are evidently doing IS producing gasoline-type-substance (HHO) via a mean that can be... um... brainfart...
Well.
We are turning water into fuel.
Oh, via a mena that can be replicated in any mechanical process. (Windmill, hamsters, dam, etc....)

You see, electricity has a tendency to dissipate after a while, thats why repeaters are necessary, etc, so a viable way to store that energy would be a gas, HHO, that can be either recombusted into electricity or mechanical motion.

Allright, ill shut up now, I have no calculations but hey let these people (and me) work in peace.

And on that note,

PEACE!
-Tyeo
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:01 PM   #46
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I try

[QUOTE=opelgt73;102465]I also have an Engineering background and thoroughly understand physics and thermodynamics and I would love for someone to describe to me how converting mechanical energy from the crank, to electricity at the alternator, to Hydrogen via HHO generator, back to the combustion chamber is not going to lose a tremendous amount of energy in the process?
1.Partially correct. You run your car on gasoline and create energy to power other parts of your car, as the engine turns the alternator also turns and generates electrical current. Enough electrical current is generated to power all the gadgets in your car if they were all turned on at once. So you use a bit of this surplus current and power your hydrogen generator. This makes HHO and it is sucked into your intake manifold to enhance the burn of the gasoline. You are not getting something for nothing. You have to power the generator to make a fuel enhancement, but you are not running your car on hydrogen.You are not using the hydrogen for energy, it is just to enhance the flamefront in the combustion cycle.

It is perpetual motion in the sense that you think that your engine which is producing Hydrogen and burning the Hydrogen it is producing will ever be a net surplus of energy.
Perhaps when we overcome entropy we can dispute this but right now you are absolutely correct. Oddly enough people are getting results to gasoline / diesel engines with HHO generators so regardless of how much science we know there is always more to learn.
.

QUOTE]
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:14 PM   #47
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Its NOT perpetual motion becuase you are usiing surplus energy from the Alt to convert the hydrogen from water...

These laws of physics that everyone seems to love to go by, do they include the use of electrolytes? We know that with the help of them, HHO gens create more HHO....

Funny, according to the laws of physics bees should not fly...nor should helicopters...
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:57 AM   #48
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Funny, according to the laws of physics bees should not fly...nor should helicopters...
Um... Yea they can, Law of gravity keeps them stable, the laws of aerodynamics and propulsion keep them moving.
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Old 05-29-2008, 03:30 AM   #49
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As you walk through the forest of life...don't stop to argue with the stumps...talk to the trees?
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Leading the perpetually ignorant and uninformed into the light of scientific knowledge. Did I really say that?

a new policy....I intend to ignore the nescient...a waste of time and energy.
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:02 AM   #50
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The assumption that an alternator has surplus energy is questionable.

The alternator varies it's load (and power requirement) based on the state of charge of the battery. If the alternator was continuously creating more amperage than necessary the battery would be overcharged and would soon fail.

In my car the engine slows down as you turn on the turn signals, or any other additional electrical load, until the load sensor increases the idle speed to compensate.

Think of it as tank of water and a small hydro-electric turbine. If you run the small turbine and empty the tank, it takes power to refill the tank.

In an auto electrical system its the same principle, you don't get the HHO for free.

"Run your car on water"

Not really truth in advertizing, especially to those that understand the above fact.

Assuming the HHO enhances the burning of wasted fuel. Thats the HHO proponents best argument. The problem with that is there is not that much wasted fuel, or the unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust would be astronomical.

Put you car on a dyno and see how much more power you use to create HHO.
Then create HHO without using the car as the generator while its on the dyno. Do this by using a different battery not the battery in the car.

The net gain in power (if there is one) will be the increase in efficiency.
No net gain in power or even a loss is a decrease in efficiency.

It's that easy to prove whether it is more or less efficient.

Theory is one thing absolute proof is another altogether.

regards
gary
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