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Old 10-03-2006, 04:41 PM   #11
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my one and only w.a.i experiment i cute short cause colants temp got too highmy car had an air silencer underneath the air box so i took that off, and used a shop vac hose from near the exhasut manifold. intake air temps was up about 10 degrees or so but coolant temp was up 20-25! usual run 181-185 and was up to 211-215. air temps here are still close to 90 during the day so maybe this is more suited to cooler weather or maybe i need to do a lil more testing.
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Old 10-03-2006, 04:57 PM   #12
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Sponge Action

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Originally Posted by zpiloto
Mine acted the same way when the IAT gets up around 130 or higher the FE drops like a rock.
I think with the temps the way they are you need to try again without the WAI because you already have it. Here's a couple of things you can try that I used for my commute during the summer to keep the IAT in my sweet spot. My airbox is set up so that the filter sits on top and there a a huge space under it that I put 3 glasses of ice in. This would last 30 minutes at 100+ for the commute. I quickly got tired of that. So I tried a wet sponge down there and that would last about 1.0. and keep the IAT under 125. The wet sponge acutally keep it the same IAT as the ice as long as the car was not idling. But now you added increased humidity to your equation The spong did the trick and keep the temps low enough that the timing was not retared. YMMV
The highest I've ever seen the IAT was 212F, which was about 110 above ambient at the time. The car drove, no problems (that's with premium fuel, otherwise I'd detonate the B18 into the next county-- I can't confirm FE, tho.

Z- That's actually fascinating that you did this experiment (is it posted?) I just need to know the bell-curve of temp for my model (prob. experimentation). Now regarding humidity, the concensus is: the higher, the better (denser air = better combustion). I may try a sponge at the bottom of the airbox under the cone filter and a tube with a funnel quick-connect to easily add water to moisten the sponge without popping the hood -- to test it out. I'm bored, so I'm off to the hardware store...

RH77
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Old 10-03-2006, 06:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rh77
The highest I've ever seen the IAT was 212F, which was about 110 above ambient at the time. The car drove, no problems (that's with premium fuel, otherwise I'd detonate the B18 into the next county-- I can't confirm FE, tho.

Z- That's actually fascinating that you did this experiment (is it posted?) I just need to know the bell-curve of temp for my model (prob. experimentation). Now regarding humidity, the concensus is: the higher, the better (denser air = better combustion). I may try a sponge at the bottom of the airbox under the cone filter and a tube with a funnel quick-connect to easily add water to moisten the sponge without popping the hood -- to test it out. I'm bored, so I'm off to the hardware store...

RH77
No testing data. My objective was to bring the IAT down. I ran it for 2 months and it worked well. Guessing I has a 8"x4"x3/4" sponge that I roll up so it would fit inside a 2.25" diameter hole with cord on it. I would soak it, put it in the intake to the back of the box and when I need to soak it again I just used the cord to pull it out. It would bring the temps down around 25 degrees or so. Hope it works for ya.
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Old 10-03-2006, 06:55 PM   #14
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Fever Pitch

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Originally Posted by zpiloto
No testing data. My objective was to bring the IAT down. I ran it for 2 months and it worked well. Guessing I has a 8"x4"x3/4" sponge that I roll up so it would fit inside a 2.25" diameter hole with cord on it. I would soak it, put it in the intake to the back of the box and when I need to soak it again I just used the cord to pull it out. It would bring the temps down around 25 degrees or so. Hope it works for ya.
Well, I've got the sponge to test for tomorrow (where was that guy from the movie "Fever Pitch" that gave away sponges when I needed him)? Anyways, the plan is to place it flat inside the airbox, presoaked for the first long trip. If it works, then a tube will probably be inserted for EZ moisturizing. Heck, I might be able to collect rainwater and make it enviro-friendly

A concern: I have the K&N, cone filter that is coated with special oil on a regular basis to allow it to function as intended. The moisture may wash-away the oil and up the intake, gunking up the works, and requiring more maint. to the filter.

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Old 10-04-2006, 08:34 AM   #15
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Sponge-Worthy!

Well Z, the wet sponge worked like a charm! The IAT ranged from 92-126. Since it was all city driving, that number would have stayed around 115, as that was the average temp noted when throttle was applied and more air was drawn over the sponge to cool the air. No sponge yesterday saw temps of 110-150 on the same route and temps!

After a week of testing, I'll open up everything from the throttle out to the airbox to see if there was any filter oil bleed or water getting into the intake. I doubt the latter, as the car didn't hesistate like it was trying to compress water.

Great idea, and thanks!

RH77
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:49 PM   #16
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I see the topic is mostly concluded, i would like to add a bit of information i stumbeld upon today...

i was lookign at a stock B-16a2 ECU's rom and noticed the fuel multipliers,

In Farenhiet degres, and in mutliplication factor of the standard value,

12.2 - 1.21 -- 21% more fuel
16.7 - 1.21
22.5 - 1.13
39.6 - 1.06
70.0 - 1.00
145.9 - .94
212.0 - .94


According to this, we should not see much improvement from the higher temperatures. Since this is not true OBD2 must be a lot different, or the o2 sensor and knock sensor are having a lot to play with things?
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:04 PM   #17
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Great Info!

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I see the topic is mostly concluded, i would like to add a bit of information i stumbeld upon today...
This data is exactly what I needed. Anything close to routine outside temperatures seem to be the benchmark 70F (+60/-30). Too cold and it runs rich (introduce heat in the Winter), and way hot only yields 6% savings -- but with that savings in OBD-II, less power, and reduced timing is expected. So the sweet spot seems to be 50-130?

Now then, would the coldest temp before it switches multipliers be the most efficient temp (like 40-45F?) for power, timing, etc?

RH77

edited for benchmark interp.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rh77
This data is exactly what I needed. Anything close to routine outside temperatures seem to be the benchmark 70F (+60/-30). Too cold and it runs rich (introduce heat in the Winter), and way hot only yields 6% savings -- but with that savings in OBD-II, less power, and reduced timing is expected. So the sweet spot seems to be 50-130?

Now then, would the coldest temp before it switches multipliers be the most efficient temp (like 40-45F?) for power, timing, etc?

RH77

edited for benchmark interp.
Well, your specific example is extra tricky, i looked up the maps for the teggy, (the test vehicel for this study correct?)

At low loads, the car doesnt' lean out at High IAT's, but at High load, it leans out a bit more :S, and for low loads, it uses a little more for cold temps, and, a bit more for cold temps at high load,

Soo, at cold temps, you should get better gas mileage if you run under low load, and at high temps, you shoudl get better gas mileage at high load haha. oh my
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:39 PM   #19
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Yup, Teggy

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Originally Posted by red91sit
Well, your specific example is extra tricky, i looked up the maps for the teggy, (the test vehicel for this study correct?)

At low loads, the car doesnt' lean out at High IAT's, but at High load, it leans out a bit more :S, and for low loads, it uses a little more for cold temps, and, a bit more for cold temps at high load,

Soo, at cold temps, you should get better gas mileage if you run under low load, and at high temps, you shoudl get better gas mileage at high load haha. oh my
Yup it's for the 'Teg. Soooo, what the crap do I do?

Is the difference in leaning-out large enough to design a plumbing system that draws hot air at high loads and cold air at low? Instead of a complicated load-based switch, would vacuum roughly equate load? If so, a vacuum valve would be much easier to locate. Also, what's your source of mapping?

RH77
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:56 PM   #20
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Thanks for the peek inside a Honda ecu, red91sit. The temperature compensation seems similar to the map used in the Mitsubishi ecu in my car.

The Mitsu ecu shows the temperature compensation extrapolates between values. For example, if the fuel adjustment map uses 1.06 at 39.6 degrees, and 1.00 at 70 degrees, the ecu would extrapolate a correction factor of 1.03 at 55 degrees. There wouldn't be any steps or switchpoints.

I'm assuming the Honda ecu would work the same way.
I'd also assume the temp comp map matches the adjustment needed to keep the fuel trims near 100% as temp changes, since air density changes with temp. It would help the ecu keep track of the actual ammount of air flowing into the engine so it didn't have to rely on fuel trims to take up the difference.
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