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Old 04-21-2008, 07:00 PM   #1
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water fuel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb_rDkwGnU <br>
http://runyourcarwithwater.youbetterreadthis.com/ <br>
thats crazy is it true?
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:26 PM   #2
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thats crazy is it true?
Most likely no. It looks like a scam!

The thing is, whenever you look at these gadgets you have to see if the product design is claiming to violate the First Law of Thermodynamics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_l...thermodynamics . If so, the product is almost certainly a SCAM!

The thing that makes these products plausible, is that you really can turn water into fuel. And you can then burn that fuel, turning it back into water.

But (and this is the key point), the first law of thermodynamics says that it will take at least as much energy (and in most cases MORE ENERGY) to create the fuel this way, than you will get out of burning the fuel. So all such fancy contraptions do is LOWER your FE!

i.e. SCAM
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:31 PM   #3
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I have heard many people are getting increased mpg though from the HHO generators. I am about to build one myself.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:33 PM   #4
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If you want "Truth" ask a practitioner or initiate of a religious cult, sect or faith that appeals to you, if you want truth ask a practitioner or initiate of a cult, sect, faith or current paradigm of science, if you can handle a truth that has a range of decimal values between 0 and 1 inclusive, then stick around and find out.... oh, and crazy and true probably aren't mutually exclusive either
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I remember The RoadWarrior..To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time..the world was powered by the black fuel & the desert sprouted great cities..Gone now, swept away..two mighty warrior tribes went to war & touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing..thundering machines sputtered & stopped..Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:51 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by DracoFelis View Post
But (and this is the key point), the first law of thermodynamics says that it will take at least as much energy (and in most cases MORE ENERGY) to create the fuel this way, than you will get out of burning the fuel. So all such fancy contraptions do is LOWER your FE!

i.e. SCAM
Well since they are claiming 40% FE gain, I don't think that has yet violated the "law" of thermodynamics. I hate seeing it called that by the way, should be called "the statistical principle of thermodynamics". The reason being as we well know, that only 25-30% of the energy in the gasoline gets to the road, so 40% improvement of that would be 35-42% efficiency overall... don't think we've got quiiiite got overunity yet.... Yes I know it still might be a scam... but... anything that is capable of turning more energy in the gasoline into cylinder pressure, rather than just hot air, anything that makes the burn quick enough to keep heat in the mixture instead of soaking into the head and thence the coolant, is a good thing to do, because that's where 60%+ of the energy is going. HHO acceleration of the flame and displacement of more of the springy, useless, energy absorbing atmospheric nitrogen, is potentially a good thing. Done right it should damn well have efficiency gains, even if to get it in there you have to use an extra HP or two.

It's well to be skeptical of whether this particular system works, but please don't use the "laws" of thermodynamics as a blunt instrument.
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I remember The RoadWarrior..To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time..the world was powered by the black fuel & the desert sprouted great cities..Gone now, swept away..two mighty warrior tribes went to war & touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing..thundering machines sputtered & stopped..Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:20 PM   #6
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Has any company been working on Nickel plating the combustion chamber of engines? It conducts less heat than Aluminum. Still doesn't have Iron beat tho.

Nickel 52.4 BTU / (hr-ft-degF)
Aluminum 136 BTU / (hr-ft-degF)
Iron, cast 46.3 BTU / (hr-ft-degF)
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:43 PM   #7
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I looked into it for myself, it's not really going to have much effect on conductivity though, due to thinness of the finish, it could however retain a highly reflective finish. The problem really is that it will flake off due to differing expansion rates. I've seen nickel plated plugs that are flaking up after a couple of years, you wouldn't really want to have to strip your engine for replating every 3 or 4 years.

I decided I'm going to have a go at hard anodising. The idea being that I put a high polish on the aluminum then do a clear hard anodisation process... which converts the surface into a hard thick protective surface of an aluminum oxide derived ceramic... this is insulative in itself and would allow the reflective properties of aluminum to keep some radiated heat in the chamber. Basically you electrolyse the head in a hot bath of TSP solution. Sounds do-able in a large cooler.
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I remember The RoadWarrior..To understand who he was, you have to go back to another time..the world was powered by the black fuel & the desert sprouted great cities..Gone now, swept away..two mighty warrior tribes went to war & touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel, they were nothing..thundering machines sputtered & stopped..Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:23 PM   #8
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Hydrogen is a great fuel, but it's not an energy source. As long as you remember that it is an energy storage medium and the energy still has to be produced somehow, it can serve well.
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Old 04-22-2008, 07:05 PM   #9
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Actually, if you want to argue fuel vs. energy source, oil is only a fuel as well. It is little more than stored energy from millions of years ago - gathered from the sun. Hydrogen is merely a more simple fuel that we can generate instantly.

And to address Roadwarrior's point about efficiency, even a 100% gain would still not violate thermodynamic principles. Systems such as that are using HHO to facilitate a more complete combustion of the gasoline air mix. In that case, it's primary purpose is not as a fuel, but rather, a hotter spark so to speak. Even bullet shells need a primer to ignite gun powder. Same concept.
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:35 AM   #10
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Well, for that matter, sunlight is little more than stored energy from trillions of years ago. We could trace it all the way back to the big bang, but my point was that hydrogen doesn't provide energy to us, it only serves as a way to store energy, just like rechargable batteries. Dinosaur juice provides energy to us so that we don't have to produce it from some other source.

I love driving internal combustion powered vehicles, and I fear the day that the dinosaur juice runs out. I hope that's much further in the future than the chicken littles say, and I hope that when it happens we'll be ready to use hydrogen, ethanol, biodiesel, or other renewable fuels -- but I know the energy stored in some of those fuels will have to come from some other source (geothermal, wave, wind, hydro, solar, nuclear, hamster wheels -- it's all fine with me) and I'm fine with that.
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